Quick word on the book before we get to links. I’ve completed drafts of three chapters; two more are very close to being done, another is at about 40-50%, and I’m just getting started on “2007 in Review.”
On that last point, I’ve gone through the past 14 months or so of blog postings and highlighted some of the most important points. From that, I’ve created a rough outline. Next steps are to flesh everything out, follow up on research inquiries I made several months ago, etc.
The outline is a bit ambitious, and I’m not sure I’ll be able to give everything the attention it’s due, but I shall do my best. To that end, and kind of the point of me telling you all this, we’ll be entering “terse mode” (for those of you who played “Zork” and other such games back in the day) over the next several weeks.
I’ll keep posting every day, but because my focus needs to be on the book right now, sometimes it will be little more than a prompt. Other times, it might be an excerpt of a draft I’m working on at that moment. I’m not sure. I just know that I may not be as “visible” for a while, and… well, now you know, too.
Okay, that wasn’t very quick. Links, anyone?
- Padres sign Iguchi (Friar Forecast). MB likes the signing of Tadahito Iguchi, and so do I. Even without crazy plays like this one, he’s a useful guy to have around until Matt Antonelli is ready. It’s a 1-year deal for $4 million; not a lot of risk there.
- Padres, desperate for outfield help, targeting Pirates’ Bay (ESPN, via Coronado Mike in the comments). Old rumors. Jason Bay doesn’t excite me much these days. The Padres will find someone, or several someones, to play left field next year, just like they did in ‘07. Center field is the concern, and Bay doesn’t help there.
- 2007 Sabermetric Year in Review: San Diego Padres (Stastically Speaking, via Friar Forecast). Mostly review material, but well done.
- Tom Krasovic chat transcript (San Diego Union-Tribune). In response to a question about the aforementioned Bay:
Pirates will want a lot. He’s the face of their franchise. And the fans there would revolt if they don’t get a lot for him. You’ve got to feel for Pirates fans. Not much hope there.
- San Diego Padres Top 20 Prospects for 2008 (Minor League Ball, via Didi in the comments). John Sickels has posted his list. It seems very reasonable to me (I’m more down on Chad Huffman than just about anyone, which hopefully means I’m wrong). Sickels really likes the relievers taken in the Rule V draft.
- Economic principles guide free-agent contracts (Yahoo!, via Schlom in the comments). Vince Gennaro talks about this year’s free-agent class.
- Right on the sweet spot (Friar Forecast). MB offers his thoughts on what strategy the Padres might want to employ this winter.
- The 2008 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot — A Roundtable Discussion (ArmchairGM). David Pinto, Dayn Perry, Dan McLaughlin, Matt Sussman, and Rich Lederer discuss the relative merits of this year’s crop of nominees.
Mitchell Report
This whole thing disgusts me. So many questions. So many visceral reactions, so few considered responses. I find myself wondering, among many other things, what, if any, impact the recent actions against Marion Jones might have on the course MLB chooses. But mostly I’m just irritated with everyone involved, myself included (hey, every ticket I buy helps support the system).
- The report (MLB). Yep, a 409-page PDF file to curl up with by the fire. You, your honey, a cup of hot chocolate, and the Mitchell Report. Good times.
- Thumbnails of players mentioned in Mitchell Report (Yahoo!). Yowza, that’s a lot of names.
- More Mitchell Report (Knuckle Curve). Calling my own number. I’ve read only parts of it, but these are some very preliminary thoughts.
- San Diego Padres named in Mitchell Report and all of the uses of the word “buttocks” (Gaslamp Ball). Dex lists the former Padres mentioned. Matt Herges? Gary Bennett?
Finally, for a bit of levity on a Friday, I present the timeless Cindy und Bert (thanks to my friend Alan for the heads-up). Happy happy, yo yo.
126 Comments
I’m not sure if I’m alone on this, but I don’t really feel an extreme sense of indignation or sadness about the Mitchell Report. Most of it is not a suprise to me (Nook Logan? Seriously?), and I really think that if anyone believes that drugs are not a key part of any professional sport, then they are unnecessarily deluding themselves.
Obviously this makes things difficult for parents with children who idolize these people. But I think it’s important to not vilify these people. I firmly believe that the primary reason Bonds is hated so vehemently is because of his abrasive and haughty personality. Were he more humble, he probably would get the McGwire or Sosa (who surprisingly has avoided much of the taint) treatment. I honestly cannot hate or think ill of many of these people, though. Part of the American culture is to win at any cost, and at least a decent percentage of these players probably used steroids in a recovery and rehabilitative manner.
The bottom line, for me at least, is this: If I were in a situation where I was in a 4A player trying to break into the big leagues, and I had a chance to “make it” through unsavory means, I cannot definitively say that I wouldn’t explore such an option.
Steroids, like some other illegal substances, are largely victimless crimes that only harm the people who take them. The only people I really feel sympathy for in this situation are the players whose moral and ethical integrity prevented them from taking advantage of the system like others. I especially feel bad for those who made an honorable moral choice and washed out as a result.
First:
Then:
Those are victims, no?
Sorry Phantom, I got a problem with all of that…shocker, eh?
This is not victimless…you named many of the victims…the guys who had the moral/ethical fortitude to say no thanks…how many of those guys never made it to “The Show” because some schlep like Matt “GasCan” Herges shot up? How many guys never got their shot b/c Gary Friek’n Bennett decided that he needed to shoot himself full of horse juices?
I am harmed by it…that love I felt in 98 for Big Mac and Sammy was crap…that affinity I have for Rocket is tainted…At least Bonds has the cajones to be a jerk and not seem to care if we know…
This whole thing, while not a shock, really sucks. This game that I love has been tainted and it makes me a little more callus…that sucks.
Like you, I have asked myself if I would make it to MLB by shooting up HGH or RhinoBlood into me, I would have a dang tough time not doing it…I can’t say that I would, but I can’t say, for the sake of my family and my dream, that I would not. Sure, I like to think that I have the moral fortitude to do the right thing and stay away from it, but I don’t know for sure…
I am pretty bitter today…not a fun day to be a fan of baseball…Sure, most sports will deal with this stuff…I mean, if we think that HGH is the rage for 2007-2008, we are fooling ourselves. They are probably 2-3 drugs beyond that…but that does not make it right…it does not make it victimless…it does not mean that I need to ignore it. Sometimes you need to go after the right thing because it is the right thing. Sports, like society, won’t ever “win” the war on drugs, but the right thing to do is to keep fighting that war and do what is right.
We are all disapointed and bitter but is anyone honestly going to do anyhting different this season? I know I will prob go to the same amount of games as I do every year, I will still watch the team almost every night, and I will still post on DS every day (sorry guys)…
Steve…I will go to games…I will read the paper and online and DS, etc…just like I did after ‘94 strike…but it has even less luster than it did…I guess that is part of getting old…just getting a bit more cranky about it.
2 & 3: Victimless in the sense that their actions harm only themselves. Nothing prevented those with upstanding moral fortitude to resist temptation.
That said, those that avoided temptation (like Tony), should be lauded for their moral character.
Steroids are victimless like marijuana is victimless. The only people who directly suffer ill effects are those who use. Alcohol is a much more sinister and dangerous substance than either of those two substances, and yet it is tightly wound into the fabric of our culture.
As a baseball fan, I almost think its hyprocritical to feel a victim myself. I wanted my team to win. On a daily basis, I unfairly heap my hopes and dreams on the shoulders of the players who wear the Padres jersey. Baseball players should never have to be role models, that’s a role they can choose if they’d like. There are certainly those who make terrific role models (Tony, Trevor, CY), and those who should never directly interact with children (Bonds, Albert Belle). Regardless, baseball players are doing a job. Granted, it’s a job all of us wish we could have, but it’s still their job. They also have to deal with the burden of millions of people idolizing them and relying on them for extreme joy.
The American philosophy of winning at any cost is just as much to blame for steroid use in baseball as anything else. We expect so much these people, and we want them to win. If they’re great people on top of that, then it’s a bonus. As Padres fans, we’ve been incredibly blessed to have great players who are also great people. But that is most certainly not always the case.
I dunno, I just don’t feel the anger or remorse or betrayal that some do. I feel like I have a strong moral and ethical code, but I also have to recognize the reality of professional sports in this country. I still believe that the only real victims are those who took steroids. While I feel bad for those who didn’t take advantage of the system, they are not victims in my mind. I suppose, by this definition, those people could be considered victims: “a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency”.
Regardless, it’s part of the culture of this sport. To suggest that anyone who didn’t use didn’t know people were using is kind of unrealistic. They recognized and accepted that they played on an unlevel field and they persevered. These people should be lauded. But they are not victims.
4 & 5: Maybe I’m just overly cynical, but I’m still totally amped about the coming season and I still want to get involved in the business if I can. Maybe I’ve just been exposed to drug use in sports before (I used to referee for professional wrestling) and I realize that there’s a very real human element to that drug use and a very real reason for it. While these are decisions that I personally would not make, I understand them and ultimately accept them. I don’t condone them, and I would raise my children to be wary of such substances. But ultimately, the Mitchell Report doesn’t have any appreciable affect for my opinion of the sport. If anything, baseball has at least tried to identify a problem, even if the effort was pretty much half-assed.
A question, though. Why is baseball held to a higher standard than football, basketball, hockey, et al?
At least football has had a testing program for over a decade.
The only thing that pisses me off about this whole steroids thing is that I have had to hear about it for the past 2 freaking days non-stop. This report was a total waste of $20 million. Phantom is exactly right. These players dangered only themselves. I probably would have taken them if I was in the position that most of the guys named were. I don’t care about who did them because I assume it was nearly everyone. Just fix it and move on! 98 with Sosa and McGwire was amazing and I will never forget it. That is the summer I got back into baseball after not caring a damn about it for the 4 or 5 years prior. Juiced pitchers were still throwing them pitches so to me it’s all relative. Just because the guys were taking a substance that helped them get bigger and stronger quicker doesn’t matter to me. This will forever be known as the steroid era I’m fine with that. There have been a bunch of ers’s in the time of baseball this is just another. Can you imagine outfielders smoking cigarettes during the game today like they did 80 years ago? Can you imagine the game without African American athletes playing it? Can you imagine the kind of players Pete Rose or Hank Aaron might have been without the help of “Greenies”?
I do like the fact that they are cleaning up the problem so that kids don’t grow up thinking that is what they have to do to play baseball. Then again with the sports supplement business growing and thriving like it is players are achieving basically the same thing now days “legally”.
I’m so over this I just want to know who the hell is playing the outfield already!
9: Nice sentiment. I agree. Let’s move on to baseball!
MLBTR has a nice link to Krasovic’s article in the UT this morning about how Iguchi accepted a cheaper and shorter deal in San Diego just because it’s San Diego. A nice little edge we’ve developed as a city.
8: The NFL testing program is a joke. It ignores a lot of substances and there are all kinds of stories about players being warned about tests in advance.
Re: 11 May not be perfect but it was still in place a long time before MLB, also it cant be that bad, players are getting suspended left and right for positive tests, even stars that you would thinkg that the league would want to protect like Merriman have tested positive.
Re: 11 you could also say the same thing about the current MLB program…
12: Left and right? There are around 1600 NFL players, not counting guys on practice squads. Barry Bonds would look tiny compared to many of them. They’re caught a handful.
Their program has gotten tougher as they tried to get in front of the story after seeing what happened to baseball. But from 89, when it started, to 2005, the NFL caught 57 players. That’s about 3 a year.
11: Baseball’s program now is the most stringent of all major sports. It doesn’t test for things that there’s no good test for like HGH.
I wish Selig had made more of how good their testing program is now instead of saying “cheater” three hundred times in his press conference. The report itself evenly apportions blame the MLB, individual owners and management, and players. Selig sounded like he skipped over that part. Bad players, bad players! Cheaters!
Re. 7: It matters more because, despite it being #2 in popularity, it matters…I am a sentimental, romantic who holds a history degree…so I am a bit slanted here, but baseball matters because it is our sport, we invented it, perfected it…it is quintisential American…a team sport with a ‘pull yourself up’ mentality. You can’t do it without the team, but you really need to rely on yourself…very American.
Unlike the other major sports (basketball and football), most of these guys look like us…okay, honestly I look like a lineman, but most ball players don’t stick out…unless you know what a “ball player” looks like or you are already a fan, you could pass *most* baseball players and not know it. Why is that important? Because it allows everyone to dream…short ones, tall ones, fat ones, skinny ones, all ones…it is the great equalizer. How many guys that are 5′10 are gonna play in the NBA or NFL? it is a chasm that most can’t cross…baseball, however appeals and allows for pretty much anyone who has to wear a cup to play.
Baseball also matters more and is held to a higher standard because we fans hold numbers and individual achievement very highly…why was Shawne Merriman’s bust not such a big deal last year? B/C we care more about the Chargers than we do about him…we may hold him up as a great player, but we dream of playing for the Chargers, not being Shawne Merriman…in baseball we dream of being T-Gwynn, The Mick, Hammering Hank, or the Babe…it is a more individual sport than the others…
Finally, because the people in power…Congressmen, Senators, heck, even the President are fans. When that is the most popular sport in the halls of power, it is going to matter more and be held to a higher standard…
Anyway, I could go on and on about any of those and this post is already too long…count me as sad, upset, and disenfranchised…but I still want to know about the Padres OF, ARod’s greatness, and KG’s strange stranglehold on the SD Fandom.
Toughest testing in pro sports = smartest kid in a school for mentally retarded. Just because’s it the toughest, doesn’t mean it isnt extremly flawed.
16: There’s nothing strange about it sir. If only you would open your heart, you would understand :-p
One thing I am glad about, for baseball’s sake, is that A-Rod’s name did NOT show up in the report. Has anyone ever heard any credible rumors about A-Rod using? I really think he could be the guy that leads baseball out of these media-critical times and back into being something that is less tainted and more broadly accepted.
Outside of Colin Cowherd, I have not heard his name mentioned in anything other than he is clean.
16: I don’t think that the different dreams are the main reason for the different standards. Football is violence. Football glorifies the Just Win, Baby mentality. Football is depersonalized. The robot players Fox uses for its broadcasts are perfect examples. Fans and the media both treat most football players as faceless toys that smash into one another and get replaced in 2-3 years. In that context, PEDs aren’t going to make many people feel different. It’s led to a faster game with a lot of high impacts, and the fans love it.
Re: 18 Conseco has said A-Rod uses, say what you want about Conseco but so far he has been correct on every name he has given, but then again I dont know what proof he has.
21: Actually, I think Canseco missed on several. That’s what Will Carroll of Baseball Prospectus said after reviewing the names.
I forgot about that Steve…and that is why Cowherd keeps mentioning ARod…he says that since everything Canseco has said has been proven true, he has no reason to doubt his assertion that ARod juices.
Good news everyone…SI.com is reporting that more names are coming!!! The SI investigation has more names…the DEA investigation has more names…the FBI and IRS, both have more names!
Just hit me in the head with a hammer and eat my love of baseball for dinner. This is like that reoccurring dream of standing in front of church with no clothes on…now, I just need the cute girls to laugh and point.
24: I’m not surprised that more names are coming. Not that I think Clemens didn’t use, but his lawyer made very convincing claims about the fact that even if some of these allegations are at one point misproven, some of these players will be tainted forever, for better or worse.
Obviously the Feds do a pretty good job of researching their cases, and they have subpoena powers, but Mitchell did not. Would it be unreasonable to think that disgruntled trainers might throw out big names to get off the hook?
Yup…and they will probably get other clubbies to talk, not just the ones in NYC…as soon as you get other hanger’s-on to sing, more teams will be hit…Steroids were not just a problem on the Yankee’s teams of the late 90’s, although the Mitchell report seems to imply that.
I wish people would stop acting like HGH is the same thing as steroids. Dan Engber at Slate has been trying to dispel myths about HGH for ages. He mentioned it again yesterday:
UC…sorry, but that is exacly why I have a problem with HGH as a performance enhancer…it allows for quicker recovery…it is not just major injury, but fatigue and minor nicks…one of the beauties of baseball is that it is played everyday…he who can endure the little nagging injuries is often the better player…overcoming a lot of that is part of the game…it was for the Iron Horse, the Iron Man, and every other player trying to play everyday. HGH gives an unfair advantage.
If the treatment is safe, it’s no more unfair than any other doctor-prescribed treatment, except of course for the fact that it’s presently illegal. But its illegality is due largely to misinformation and hearsay, and most doctors who have studied HGH have concluded that HGH is safe, and its uses largely beneficial to patients. There is a real possibility that, in 5 years, HGH treatments will be legal and available with a prescription, just as steroids are a valuable part of the current doctor’s arsenal (used with antihistamines, for example).
Anyway, I’m not arguing that. The important part is that HGH is a health-enhancing drug, not a performance-enhancing drug.
27, 29: Some people lump them together out of misinformation, but others lump them together because they’re both currently illegal and violate MLB’s drug policy.
29: I’ve read about an anabolic steroid used in conjunction with Ketotifen for bodybuilders, which wouldn’t be a medically prescribed usage. Are other anabolic steroids used with antihistamines? I know non-anabolic steroids are, I’ve had enough of them injected into me to counteract poison oak.
6: While I agree with you on the general statement about the victimless nature of illegal substances. Steroid users in baseball creates victims by forcing other players to choose between their health or falling behind their competitors. Either their health suffers or their success in their chosen profession suffers. You may have a unique interpretation of the term “victim” but regardless of semantics, that is why performance-enhancing, health-damaging substances don’t belong in professional sports even if they shouldn’t be outlawed. And the American philosophy is to win with integrity, that’s why there is an uproar, not cheering over their ingenuity.
30: One of the benefits of anabolic steroids is that they allow you to train more without overtraining. Basically faster recovery time while also increasing strength. I’m not sure I can draw the same line you do between the two.
Regarding the benefits of HGH, I have talked with a physician who indicates that several of the reports are very promising. However, he also indicated that the big concern is the cell division that occurs with human growth hormone and what effect if may have on existing cancer cells in the body. In other words, he indicated that there is just not enough information available yet to make good solid health decisions.
32: I would still disagree with you about our understanding of victim, as baseball players are well aware of the competitive landscape when they decide to choose it as a profession.
Also, I would also disagree that “win with integrity” is the American philosophy. I’m pretty sure “Win at any cost” or “Do whatever it takes” are the true American philosophies with “integrity preferred” as a tacked-on statement. Unfortunately, that’s the society we live in. As I mentioned earlier, we have been supremely lucky to have a couple great baseball players who were great people in San Diego.
By all accounts, Shawne Merriman is an arrogant ass, but people love him because he’s talented. It’s the same thing with A-Rod (and I don’t even think he’s an ass). People either love or worship him, largely because of his talent level (if you’re a Red Sox fan, you hate him because he’s the best baseball player today and he plays for the Yankees).
At the end of the day, wins and losses are what people care about most. A good personality certainly does a lot to further endear you to the fanbase, but few people would argue that Steve Finley should be our CF solution since he’s a great guy.
35: There should have been a negative adjective in that setence about A-Rod (not love or worship, perhaps detest or worship).
I think a lot of you people are hopelessly naive. It’s easy for us as non-athletes to sit on the sidelines and condemn these athletes for using steroids and act like they are the worst people in the world. However, in reality, it’s not that simple. I sincerely doubt that there are too many people that wouldn’t use some sort of performance enhancer knowing that it would make you better. For some it would make them a superstar, for others all-stars, and for others it would mean the difference between being a minor league lifer or washing out of baseball entirely and actually make the majors for a few seasons. Are you serious in saying that given that choice, you wouldn’t do it? And if you say with absolute certainty that you wouldn’t take them, I don’t believe it.
Steroids are rampant in professional sports, just like they are rampant in college athletics and even in high school. The reality is that there is no real solution. You can either take the NFL position (fake testing to catch a few players a season and look like you trying) or the track and field and pro cycling position (aggressively test, hammer people you catch and then catch the PR hit because you actually catch the cheaters). I’m sure that baseball will take the NFL position because it’s the only one that you can do.
I think a lot of people would like a zero-tolerence testing program but how realistic is that going to be? For one, it’s been known that the testing has always lagged behind the drugs people are taking. Secondly, what if the drug testing is 100% fool proof? Can baseball ban someone if the test wasn’t accurate? I don’t see what baseball can do.
32: I should add that regarding the “uproar”, a good majority of said uproar is coming from the media and casual baseball fans – in other words, those that don’t follow the game that closely. The media has totally blown the Mitchell Report out of proportion, because “steroids” are sexy and scandalous. Hell, look at the media coverage surrounding Chris Benoit’s final days. There was never any proof that his meltdown was steroid-related, and many of us in the Professional Wrestling business were honestly just surprised that such a thing hadn’t happened before, given the demands of such a lifestyle.
But, I digress. There are obviously hardcore baseball fans that are livid about the rampant spready of steroid use in baseball, and I don’t discount those people or their emotions. By and large though, I believe that most people are just glad the Mitchell Report is out and by next week, the media will be focusing on something else. Once Selig and DuPuy complete their testimonies in Congress, this issue will be largely ignored until Bonds is brought to trial next November.
I would never go as far as Schlom to call people hopelessly naive. People are certainly entitled to be pissed about this, and I can see where a lot of the outrage is coming from. Personally, this report only infuriates me in the extent that is belabored and bandied about by the media, many of whom ignore baseball unless someone is tragically killed.
Do you believe it when current or former players say it? Like, for instance, Tony Gwynn?
As for naivete, I think that misses the point. Let me put it this way: How depressing would it be to work in an environment where the only way to advance your career was by cheating? How would that not totally suck?
I sure am glad there are no victims…
39: I don’t think its fair to say “the only way to advance your career was by cheating”. Tony Gwynn is a fantastic example of someone who excelled at his career without cheating. Depending on who you believe about steroid’s penetration into professional baseball, there myriad examples of people who excelled without cheating.
Sure, some high profile names were caught. But that doesn’t mean I’m suspicious of everyone, just because they were talented. I don’t believe that Jake Peavy takes steroids despite his incredible success since his debut.
The other thing that annoys me about the steroid issue is that there is somehow this conception that if you took steroids, you didn’t need to have any innate talent or desire to win. Sure, it sucks that Clemens took steroids, but that doesn’t diminish his level of effort or his competitive drive to succeed. I’m also willing to bet that Clemens possessed some actual talent.
I can’t believe I’m going to say this, but steroids didn’t help Barry better see pitches. He was a great hitter, regardless of how he inflated his power numbers through PEDs. As I also said earlier, I firmly believe that if Bonds had been more humble and a more amiable person, the witch hunt against might have never come. Perhaps it still would have since he broke one of the most visible records in professional sports history. Regardless, I sincerely believe that Barry’s biggest undoing was his own arrogance.
40: Perception, not conception. We need an edit button
In an attempt to change the subject…what do ya’ll think about the rumors of getting Geoff Jenkins? I’m pretty pumped about it. Looking at the career splits, I think that we’d have a great platoon with Jenkins and Hairston at less than half the cost it would have been to put Fukodome out there. Plus, the benefit of the platoon option is that whichever one isn’t starting that day is available to pinch hit anywhere in the order against a reliever later in the game. I’m surprised small market teams don’t use that tactic more often. Thoughts?
39.
I think it’s a different argument when guys like Gwynn could go out and hit .300 with his eyes closed then go home and pound triple cheeseburgers because he was just “gifted”. Tony Gwynn has said many times that he didn’t need to take steriods to be great. Obviously he was right. Matt Herges on the other hand probably needed every last cc in that syringe to even make a ML team. If you don’t need steriods then why take them (Bonds)?
Let’s put it this way, if it came out that every single major professional athlete was using steroids, it wouldn’t shock me at all. I already think about every NFL player is — why wouldn’t they? For almost half the players on the field at one time (all the lineman, maybe the fullback and some linebacker) there is no limit to how much muscle you can have. The more you have the better off you are. Of course, it’s not the same in baseball but being stronger is always going to help up to a certain point.
Just saying it’s cheating and leaving it at that isn’t fair. Taking steroids isn’t like cheating off someone else’s test in school. You still have to workout for the steroids to have any effect. I guess a good parallel is that if someone used a pill (caffeineor amphetamine) to stay awake late at night so you could study more. Obviously you’d have an advantage over someone who was trying to get by naturally. Would you consider that cheating and condemn that person as the worst person in the world?
42: It would be horrible. Platoons are horrible. Aahhh!!
42: I think you’re dead on about the platoon idea, I’m just not familiar with Jenkins’ defense. Better than Hairston’s? Worse?
43: There’s no doubting that marginal players were able to make it because of steroids. But there are also probably marginal players who made it because of their work ethic.
As for why you would take them if you’re a good player, in 2000, why not? There was no formal policy against using steroids (although really, if it’s illegal in the country you work in, do you NEED a formal policy?) and Bonds probably recognized he had a unique opportunity. He seems like the kind of guy who would have been ambitious enough to realize 8 years ago that he could potentially be the all-time HR king at some point.
Re: 46
From what I’ve seen, Geoff Jenkins is plus defender.
Phantom, you are in the pro-wrestling business?
Would you consider that cheating and condemn that person as the worst person in the world?
No one is saying these guys are the worst people in the world. But if the caffeine pill was illegal, both in society and within the rules of the game/classroom, it’s cheating. Period. That doesn’t mean they need to be attacked as immoral, it just means they broke the rules and deserve the consequences of their actions (suspension, ban, etc.).
Another thing, why are we glorifying Tony Gwynn? Isn’t he a rather poor example for a professional athlete? He certainly worked at his hitting but at nothing else. He was simply too lazy to keep himself in shape and shortened his career and hurt his team because of his unwillingness to do so. Don’t get me wrong, I like Tony and think he’s a great guy but he’s not exactly someone I’d like my children to emulate.
The problem is that everyone is talking about a level playing field. The thing is, there’s no such thing. Some guys are just naturally more talented then others. And for some people to compete, they are naturally going to try to get any edge that they can get. Some of you act like that’s some type of character flaw — unfortunately the real world is much more complex. Again, it’s simple to sit here and pass judgment but until you are in that situation you don’t know how you would react.
50: I for one would be thrilled if my kids ended up like Tony Gwynn. If he really were to do everything possible for his career he would have gone to the American League to DH in like 99.
48: I used to be heavily involved as a referee on the indie circuit. I bowed out this year. It was fun while I was in college, but with an 8 to 5 job, my weekends became too important for me to journey all over Southern California for $20 and a potential injury.
50: Couldn’t you use the “it’s simple to sit here and pass judgment” defense on any lawbreaking activity? I’ve never robbed a bank, but even if someone robbed it to feed his starving family, that doesn’t make it ethical. I agree with the basic conceit of your posts — let he who is without sin cast the first stone — but I think it’s a little tedious for you to sit here and attack people who just want to root for people who abide by the law and the rules of the game. It’s naive to expect a player to be clean, but it isn’t naive to hope for it.
From what I’ve seen, Geoff Jenkins is plus defender.
He ranked pretty highly among left-fielders in Pinto’s Probabilistic Model of Range:
http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/023979.php
Another name up near the top: Scott Hairston!
45: You’re kidding right? Tone is so hard to determine…
Phantom, maybe I’ve seen you. I used to really follow wrestling and would read socal uncensored religously daily and would head out to lots of wcwa and upw shows.
Of course you being in wrestling lets us know why you are so forgiving of steroids.
52: I think you kind of proved my point — you just compared using steroids to robbing a bank. That’s exactly what I’m trying to counter — too many people are equating them. I understand that probably no one who reads this blog played sports at any high level, I doubt that anyone even played Div I sports. I think if you did, your perspective might be changed.
I wouldn’t mind seeing a 2008 lineup of:
1. RF-Giles
2. 2B-Iguchi
3. 1B-Gonzo
4 .3B-Kouz
5. LF-Jenkins
6. SS-Greene
7. C-Bard
8. CF-McLouth?
I put Gonzo in the three hole simply to stagger the lefties and the righties.
Any thoughts on an ideal, yet realistic 2008 lineup?
55: I used to post on SCU as PhantomPretender. I never worked a WCWA show becuase the only show of theirs I ever attended was their last one when Pearce started the riot. I mostly did AWS, some Rev Pro and Rev X, EWF, WAR, and a few others. I was pretty close to the New Japan people for a while and I used to do a lot at their offices in Santa Monica.
55: Also, the best bump I ever took was a running dropkick from Austin Aires. It was at a War show at the dojo in Santa Monica in a singles match against Adam Pearce. I never saw the footage, but from what I heard, it looks like Aires absolutely killed me with the kick. It helps that he actually did dropkick me just below the chin…
I’m surprised I’m as ambivalent towards steroids as I am, given the things I used to hear about Masters when he was at UPW. I also got pretty close to some of the New Japan guys and was bummed when I found out some of them did steroids. Being that close to them though, I also understood why they did it because they wanted to make it so bad.
MLBTR reports we’ve signed Glendon Rusch and wonders with Estes, Hensley, and Germano if we’re done in terms of starting pitching.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/12/padres-sign-gle.html
Re: 61
I would be very surprised if Josh Towers is not signed in the next few days.
I like the fact that the Padres are picking up these low cost, potentially high impact pitchers. Every pitcher is going to look better then he really is pitching in Petco so I think the Padres should maximize this by picking up as many pitchers as possible. Then, if some of them pan out, they can trade them for things they need.
On related note, I’m hoping the Padres pick up Mark Prior. I can’t imagine that he’ll cost much but he has as much potential as pretty much any starter available. 2003 was a long time ago but I think it’s worth a gamble that he might have another season like that still in him. He’s still pretty young, only 8 months older then Jake.
The SF Chronicle is reporting the Diamondbacks got Haren fot a 6 prospect package built around Carlos Gonzalez.
63: They also traded Jose Valverdge to the Astros for Chris Burke, Chad Qualls, and Juan Gutierrez.
This still doesn’t concern me all that much. Maybe it should, but it doesn’t. Is there much left in the D’backs farm system at this point?
Re: 64
Do you think Houston would have taken Hoffman for the same package?
Wishful thinking, I guess.
Not a big issue right now, but I read that Iggy will NOT bring us a compensatory pick next year when and if (see link below), he leaves. I am not sure why he wouldn’t, but that is what I read. The link refers to the possibility he could stay for 2009. If he signs for another year (2009), then I am sure he would bring a pick if he signs with someone else after that
http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/padres/20071213-9999-1s13padres.html
57: That lineup looks about right. Against a lefty starter, it would look more like:
Giles
Iguchi
Gonzo
Kouz
Greene
Hairston
McLouth
Bard
Plus, I’m still holding out hope for a two-year contract for Cameron. Then I think we’d have:
Giles
Iguchi
Gonzo
Kouz
Jenkins
Cameron
Greene
Bard
Re: 67
I like it vs. lefties even more.
That’s not good news for the Padres regarding the Dback trades. Not much of a return for Valverde but what can you get for a 65IP pitcher these days? Phantom, who cares what’s left in their minor league system. Right now, Byrnes and Hudson are the oldest of their position players at 31 and 30 (next season). The rest of the team is filled with young players (although Snyder will be 27). For a rotation they have Webb, Haren, Davis, Owings and someone else and their bullpen likely won’t be very good — simply because I expect that most of pitchers will take a step back from last season. The real worry is their offense as they didn’t hit at all last year and you’d expect them to improve. They won the division last year and just added one of the better pitchers in baseball without giving up a thing that helped them last year. That spells trouble for the Padres.
Re: 69
If Arizona uses Tony Pena as closer, do you still think he will go into that uncomfortable crouch between pitches?
Don’t enjoy the thought of Haren with the D-backs. Now they’ve got a 1-2 punch comparable to ours.
On the flip-side, the Athletics have been pretty good about unloading pitchers “at their peak” in the past…..
66: Do you have a link for where you read that? I know this year the Phillies couldn’t offer him arbitration as part of his original contract when he came over from Japan, because otherwise he would have been under club control for 6 years like any other player. I wonder if he put a clause like that in this year’s contract too.
Re: 72
Hopefully he turns out more like Mark Mulder than Tim Hudson.
66,73: Never mind, I found it. “According to the Padres, they would not qualify for a compensatory draft pick if Iguchi departed through free agency next offseason,” from today’s U-T.
72: I wouldn’t say he’s been pretty good. He made a good deal for Mulder, trading him away when he was 27 (about the same age as Haren is now) for Haren, Kiko Calero and Daric Barton. However, that same off-season, he traded Tim Hudson (29 at the time) for Juan Cruz, Dan Meyer and Charles Thomas. The Mulder trade was good but the Hudson trade was awful. Mulder had one great year for the Cardinals the year he was traded but has been hurt and awful since then. Hudson was good in the odd years after the trade and bad in 2006. He’s also traded Aaron Harang (for Jose Guillen) and Ted Lilly (for Bobby Kielty) away in the past few years. With that track record, we probably should be worried, not relieved.
Looks like Oakland is going back to being the Triple A’s…
76: I was thinking of the Mulder and Hudson deals, as well as letting Zito go in free agency. I don’t think it matters what they got in return, but how the players performed after they got to their new teams. I’m too lazy to look at stats, but my impression is that each has come nowhere near putting up the stats that they put when they were in Oakland. Hudson had a decent year last year, but it seems he’s had several mediocre seasons as well.
Well, Cameron is out as an option in centerfield. I think now we’ve reached an appropriate time to panic about next year.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/weblog/2007/12/padres_no_on_cameron.html
79:At the top of that same link click to see a report that the Padres are very close to acquiring Edmonds.
I don’t think there is any free agents out there of any note that can play every day. So the Padres are going to have to trade for one. So instead of just giving up money for their CF, they are going to have to give up both money and players. Not exactly sure that’s the greatest plan in the world but I guess we’ll wait and see. I don’t think they can trade for McLouth and sign Geoff Jenkins. That would make their team too left-handed wouldn’t it (Giles, AGon, Iguchi, McLouth, Jenkins)?
The D-Backs gave up their #’s 1,3,7,and 8 BBA prospects for Haren. What SD prospects would match those? and would you have done that? (Peter, etc.)Of course Arizona is stocked with young players at the ML level so it isn’t a level question.
80: This has not been a good day for Padres fans. The D-Backs get Haren and we say goodbye to Cameron and replace him with a 37 year-old Edmonds. Standing pat is not working out for us. Next I am sure that we will see in the official announcement heralding the signing of Rusch, that he will compete with Hensley, Germano, and Estes for the 5th spot. Where’s the money allocated to Fukudome going to be spent? According to the Krasovic blog posting, we were only going to pull this deal for Edmonds if we got salary relief. Looks like we will be saving it for the deadline, again.
It’s really going to suck when Jenkins signs with Philly. I like Headley, but I have no great expectations that he will be that good this year while skipping AAA.
re:80
looks like edmonds for cash, minor leaguer. i wonder who we r giving up
84, Kras updated the post, we traded David Freese for him. Sorry Peter.
Re: 82 the Padres prospects that would matchup with that by the BA ranks are Headley, Latos, Hunter and Blanks, and no I would not do that. Also you have to figure that the D-backs farm system is better than ours so thats an even higher price. But if they draft well it will not make a huge difference in an already deep farm system and with a team with alot of young talent.
I stand corrected. It’s going to be a very left-handed lineup for the Padres next season. Gonzalez and Iguchi were both as good or better against lefties last season, Edmonds was terrible (although he was pretty terrible all-around), Giles was terrible (I wonder what his splits were against lefties at home, probably around 200/325/300), and it won’t matter if they sign Jenkins since Hairston will platoon, if not start. On the plus side, Kouz and Bard killed lefties last season and it didn’t matter to Greene.
Their outfield defense is going to be pretty bad if Edmonds doesn’t recover from last season though. It’s a huge downgrade to him from Cameron although LF should improve. This is certainly a gamble for the Padres as it looks like Edmonds has nothing left — 257/350/471 in 2006, 252/325/403 last season — a huge drop from his numbers from 2000-2005.
Re: 85 wow Freese for a one year broken down 37 year old rental, I was wrong yesterday in saying that SA and KT would not panic.
Re: 86 sorry those rankings were from Minor League Ball
88, Let’s hope that Antonelli takes to center like a duck to water.
I don’t think Freese had a whole lot of trade value. He’s spent his age 24 season only in Single A, doesn’t have a ton of power, and is completely blocked by younger and/or better players in Kouz and Headley. I think Bruce is right in that they decided that they’d rather have Antonelli in CF then 2B — which makes sense in that CF is a harder position to fill.
86: Most likely because we see Headley better than Carlos Gonzo. But can you imagine Haren in SD’s rotation?
Re: 92 would be nice and I can see why the D-backs did it. My point was that the Pads have a nice farm system now but it is a very limited one so I would not give up four of my top ten prospects in any one trade.
Re: 91 I agree with your Freese points I guess I would say anthing more than Mike Thompson would be to much for Edmonds, and I just really dont like the fact that we are renting a broken down Vet for a year.
Don’t you think we could have gotten DeJesus for Freese and maybe a mid level arm like Breit?
Edmonds might play ok defense but he’s washed up.
Re: 95 exactly my point, its like we burned one of our top 15 prospects for a one year rental.
Does an OF of Edmonds, Jenkins (if he signs) and Giles really make anyone wonder when single game tickets go on sale?
Freese isn’t a top 15 prospect. If he is that says more about the Padres system rather then his skills. His chances of making an impact in the majors is about zero. He’s going to be 25 next season and he hasn’t had a single AB above Single A. He has essentially zero trade value.
98: No. I am not sure when the front office added Sabean and Colletti to the staff. That would be the all-geriatric OF though. This team would also have NO speed whatsoever.
98: Well the outfield is by far the weakest part of the team. The infield, rotation, and bullpen should all be above average. An infield of Kouz, Greene, Iguchi, Gonzalez, and Bard makes me want to buy tickets. A rotation of Peavy, Young, Maddux, Wolf, and whoever makes me want to buy tickets.
99: That’s a little harsh. He’s hit very well at all his professional stops. When Kouzmanoff was 23 he split his season between low and high A, so there’s a precedent for someone like Freese to make it to the majors and help.
I watched Freese hit from college to every level with the Padres. I know he is 25 but you still have to hit and he did.
99, 101: Had the Padres not held Headley back the whole year in San Antonio, Freese would have played the second half of the season in AA.
I’m not saying he’s useless but the chances of him being a major league caliber starter aren’t very good. 17 HR and a 489 SLG just aren’t good enough for a 3B, especially playing in the California League. I don’t think he’s a defensive wizard either and isn’t athletic enough to be a utility man. He skill set is probably similar to Kevin Kouzmanoff, except at the same age Kouz was hitting 379/437/656 in AA and AAA.
I wonder how much money the Cardinals are sending to the Padres? I’m hoping it’s a lot because judging by his stats the past two years, it doesn’t look like Edmonds has much left in the tank.
Edmonds to the Padres!
http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2007/12/14/padres-trade-for-jim-edmonds/
I hope the Edmonds deal is pending a physical.
Wow, great scoop ET90210! Now, get a real username!
I like this deal, all things considered. I’m just glad they didn’t make us throw in Headley or Kouz for Rolen…..
This seems to be about the right amount to pay for Jim Edmonds, and I’m something of a Freese fan (perhaps because of a little too much time spent around Peter…). Edmonds, if healthy, is a CF which is what we needed. We can find a 4th OF type that can cover him defensively and in late innings. I agree that a Hairston platoon might not be far-fetched. The bottom line is that we needed a CF and Edmonds is still likely to be better than the McLouths and Nook Logans of the world.
re 107: Sorry ET90210, I wasn’t being sarcastic. I had not seen that story yet.
Lets face facts. Freese wasn’t one of our top prospects and we’re pretty set at 3B any way you look at it. Plus, he was way old for his level. It seems worth a gamble on Edmonds, IF he can stay healthy he’s certainly better than what we currently have in the OF.
#98 You simply cannot ignore Hairston. We are virtually post Giles anyway so you must include him in outfield mix
A lot of strikeouts again next year but also a load of power.
I’d be very happy now with a Jenkins/Hairston platoon.
I don’t think this is a terrible deal, and i dont really see edmonds being worse than cameron. Hell probably k less and hes a short term solution. KT et al clearly didnt want to give up headley or antonelli, which probably handcuffed us a bit negotiation wise
KT or SA said on 1090 that they talked to KC but not about DeJesus. I think it was SA during one of his winter meeting spots. KC wouldn’t have needed Headley, not that they couldn’t have flipped him.
114: Cameron is pretty clearly a better player. Cameron’s had higher OPS+ the past two years, is 3 years younger, and has had 200 more at bats each year. Two years ago Edmonds struck out 101 times in 400 PA, which is basically the same rate Cameron strikes out at. Edmonds was once a great player, but injuries have ruined his effectiveness. It’s hard to see him suddenly staying healthy this year as a 38 year old.
116: Maybe we can get him on a “program”.
112: I dont know where you get “a load of power from” looks like a pretty slow and powerless OF to me
We still need a 5th starter. I really dont get why Rusch was even offered a contract. He was never a good pitcher. At least Estes had glimpses, but his days are over.
I’m expecting Josh Towers to be #5.
119: Rusch was a good pitcher in 2004 and 2005. ERA+ of 127 and 97 in those years, Estes hasn’t been that good since 2001. But I don’t want either one of them, or Josh Towers, getting 33 starts for the Padres.
A trade for Igawa, Reyes, Bush, etc. would make us much better. The division has gotten stronger. Nobody can seriously believe that any arm works in Petco, can they?
Cameron is in steep decline offensively. I feel he will continue that decline, and I won’t miss his 160 K’s. Edmonds is a low-risk, high upside move. I’m in favor of the deal. It’s not perfect, but it’s not bad.
Steep decline?
All of the sudden, Coco Crisp doesn’t seem like such a “eh” idea.
I am a CDFO (“Continual Defender of the Front Office”), and believe they have a plan for all this. That said, “I’m just not seeing it.” (Line from Hoosiers)
I’m guessing that Antonelli and Headley are the fall back positions for left and center, respectively. It gives them some time in Portland to get some experience in different positions, in the event they’re needed out there. (Given Edmonds injury history lately, MA might want to shag a lot of fly balls.) I’m looking for one of both of them by the ASB.
Regrettably, kind of the same theory as last year, win with starting pitching, bullpen and defense and hope to win those one run games at home. I’m getting too old to sit through all those nailbiters here, though. Some offense would have been nice.
After sleeping on it, it really looks like the Padres have decided to close their eyes and hope for the best this year. Edmonds could catch lightning in a bottle for the final time in his career, but at least with the outfield, it sure looks like the team is just hoping for the best and plan on going young there in 09, with perhaps Headley and Huffman the options at the corners with Kulbacki maybe a year behind them. Antonelli could be in CF, and along with our infield, that’s a team to possibly get very excited about, especially since we know that Jake and Young will still he heading the rotation.
But yeah, it does look like the Padres are planning on seeing if they can hang around the division long enough and then see if there is a move to made mid season…
“and then see if there is a move to made mid season…” where have I heard that before?