While we’re awaiting word on Non-Orange Giles (NOG), I thought I’d throw some questions your way. I’m researching the best Padres all time at each position, and while many of the choices are pretty clear cut, some others are not and I could see arguments made on behalf of one or more players depending on how, e.g., one values peak performance versus longevity. In that vein, here are a few items I’d like to get some input on:
- Terry Kennedy is the best catcher in franchise history, but who is #2? Gene Tenace was way more productive than Benito Santiago, but Tenace played a lot of first base in San Diego and caught over 400 fewer games than Santiago and his .298 OBP. Who do you like, and why?
- First base is extremely competitive. Is it sacrilege to consider Ryan Klesko over Nate Colbert in the top spot? And who is #3? You could make a pretty strong case for any of Wally Joyner, Fred McGriff, or Jack Clark. (Sorry, Steve Garvey is not my Padre.)
- Who’s #3 at third base behind Ken Caminiti and Phil Nevin — Gary Sheffield or Graig Nettles?
- Who’s #3 at shortstop behind Garry Templeton and Khalil Greene — do you take two good years of Tony Fernandez or four years of Ozzie Smith hitting .231/.295/.278 with otherworldly defense?
- Who’s behind Gene Richards in left field — Carmelo Martinez? Greg Vaughn? Rickey Henderson? Kerry Robinson? (Heh, just wanted to make sure you’re paying attention.)
- In center, Steve Finley is the obvious choice for #1. After that, where do we go — Johnny Grubb? Kevin McReynolds? Mark Kotsay? Cito Gaston?
So. What say you?
I guess it would be Loretta . . . I must have had a glorified notion of what Bip was.
89-91 were pretty solid years, but he actually only played 85 games at 2b in those three years.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/roberbi01.shtml
Hopefully if things go well, in 10-15 years Adrian will put to bed any discussion about best Padres first baseman.
c: Kennedy
1b: Klesko
2b: Loretta
3b: Caminiti
ss: Templeton (This is the weakest spot in the lineup, he was a clubhouse cancer and overrated)
rf: Gwynn
cf: Finley
lf: Richards (If Winfield counts as a right fielder, then Richards is next up. If you were really fielding this team, you would, of course, find a way to put Gwynn and Winfield in the lineup.)
I’m guessing you guys probably saw this in the Union-Tribune:
Kevin Towers said he is still interested in bringing back pitchers Doug Brocail, David Wells and Chan Ho Park. Although Wells’ agent has said the Giants and others are candidates, Towers said he believes the Padres are still Wells’ first choice.
Stephen (#30), AWESOME!
That’s the funny thing – Kruk too – Morgan was the epitome of a risk-adverse philosophy (high on-base, low strikeouts, high SB success-rate, power, etc.) and yet he ridicules anything other than a “small ball” tactics…
#49: Loretta, then Alomar, then Veras. Funny how all three played here only 3 years. Most starts at 2B in franchise history? Tim Flannery.
Not to hate on Flan Man, but his broadcasting skills matched his talent of his playing days —- mediocre. Thanks Boch!
55: Thanks, Peter, I thought someone would find that amusing. Nothing like a little Vince Vaughan flavor at Ducksnorts.
Bip Roberts has to be on an All-Time Padre list, though his versatility hurts him — where to place him?
He was just incredible. Hit for a very high average from both sides of the plate, stole tons of bases, hit plenty of extra-base hits, played great defense at any position outside the battery, and was totally clutch. And he did it all at about 5’7″, 160. He also played so hard that he often got injured.
But, I am biased: Bip is my all-time favorite Padre. He gave his heart and soul for the Padres. Love that guy.
I did an All Time Team a couple of off seasons ago that went two deep. There had to be some longevity to a player’s tenure so guys like Fernandez with only two seasons, although good while they were here, were not considred.
Production offensively over their career was the most important criteria, my own subjective recollection of defense was used to try to break a tie if guys were close offensively.
A player’s stature in terms of significant achievements (All Time franchise leader in an important category, AS, GG, etc.) and a player’s contribution to significant teams in franchise history (1984, 1996, 1998, or in the case of guys like Winfield and RJ, just keeping baseball alive in San Diego during the late 1970′s) were also very important factors considered after production.
Catcher: Kennedy and Santiago. To me they’re really pretty close, but Kennedy gets the nod due to his 1984 presence.
1B: Colbert and Klesko. Again, very close, and some people would give the nod to Klesko, but I tend to have a soft spot for the guys in the early part of the Padres history as they laid the foundation, such as it is, for what was to come, such as it is.
2B: Loretta and Alomar. I had them Alomar and Loretta at the time, but Loretta gets a slight edge for his offense now that he’s played a third season (although if we had a good way to judge Alomar’s defense, maybe he would get the edge? Anyone?).
3B: Caminiti and Nevin. I know Nettles is popular, and I like him, too, but he just didn’t do much and wasn’t here long even with playing on the ’84 team.
SS: Templeton and Greene. Tempy has way too much longevity and history with his contribution in 1984 to be anywhere else but #1.
LF: Gene Richards and Carmelo Martinez. I tried to stick very closely to where the player performed in the OF. I don’t believe in the pick 3 OF generically method.
CF: Finley and Johnny Grubb. I’m sure some people would pick McReynolds over Grubb, and I wouldn’t argue much, especially since McReynolds was part of the 1984 team, but Grubb does have an argument. He has good longevity with the franchise and similar offensive numbers in many ways. Although McReynolds does have a big power edge, Grubb has a big OBP edge and beats him in OPS+ 119 to 111 (plus he’s one of those 1970′s guys who were important to me as I was just becoming aware of my team
.
RF: Gwynn and Winfield. As GY noted, this is the easiest call of all (other than closer).
SP: RJ, Show, Whitson, Ashby, Hurst and Dravecky. In that order, and, yes, I know it’s 6 and not 5.
RP: Lefferts, Lucas, Deleon, Greg Harris (1988-1993), Mark Davis, McCullers, and Dave Tomlin.
Closers: Hoffman, Gossage, and Fingers.
Utility IF: Flannery and Roberts.
Utility OF: Cito Gaston and McReynolds.
Manager: Dick Williams. I’ll take Dick over Bruce even though he was a Dick. To me he was the first guy who turned this franchise into a winner. He may have been a hard ass, but he won. We were 41-69 under Howard the year before, not a complete season, but easily the worst winning % since the mid 70′s. Under Williams we had two straight .500 seasons, then 1984, and were 83-79 in his final year. I fully understand if anyone wants to go with Bochy, but for me personally, it’s Williams.
No Jake Peavy, Pat?
Oh, you know what? I hand’t thought about updating the pitchers yet, and at that point Jake was only coming off his 3rd season. I guess I’d have to include him now, but I haven’t looked at it yet. Can I get back to you?
OK, revised pitching.
SP: RJ, Show, Peavy, Ashby, Dravecky, and Hurst. In that order, and, yes, I know it’s 6 and not 5.
RP: Lefferts, Lucas, Linebrink, Harris (88-93), Davis, and McCullers.
I’m a little late, but here’s my quick list:
C – Terry Kennedy
1B – Nate Colbert
2B – Mark Loretta
3B – Ken Caminiti
SS – Garry Templeton (for now)
LF – Greg Vaughn
CF – Steve Finley
RF – Tony Gwynn
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20061214/news_1s14padnotes.html
Looks like the padres have low balled NOG, hoping he really wants to play with his older bro in his hometown.
Also the padres are intrested in jayson werthless, isent that the same guy who has told the left field patrons in petco that they are #1?
C – Benito Santiago
1B – Nate Colbert
2B – Mark Loretta
3B – Ken Caminiti
SS – Ozzie Smith
LF – Gene Richards
CF – Steve Finley
RF – Tony Gwynn
#30: Hey, that’s excellent. How could I have missed this?
I know I’m a bit late on this Coronado and others, but Rickey Henderson, when he retired, was #1 all-time in walks, stolen bases and runs scored, had hit almost 300 homers, 4th in games played, had a 401 OBP, 20th all-time in hits. Griffey’s final numbers are going to rank significantly less. What continues to amaze me is the first three things – the fact that when Rickey retired he was the all-time leader in 3 significant statistical categories. Aside from Bonds, we’re not going to see that ever again in our lifetimes. Griffey was a fine player. But he’s nowhere near Rickey in terms of productivity. A better outfield arm and better defense doesn’t come close to making up for the offensive advantage Henderson has. And Mike Schmidt? Are you joking? Sure, he’s probably the best 3rd baseman of all time, but to argue that he was better than Rickey henderson? That’s just wacky.
Anyway, FWIW, here’s my top 9:
C: Santiago (best of a bad bunch)
1B: Klesko
2B: Alomar
SS: Fernandez (yep, it’s a small sample, but jesus the Pads have had some dreadful SS’s – anybody ever look up Garry Templetoin’s numbers?)
3B: Nettles, because he didn’t cheat.
LF: Richards
CF: McReynolds (but Cameron is way better)
RF: Some guy
SP: Perry, Jones, Peavy, Hurst, Show
RP: Goose, Hoffman, Lefferts, Fingers, Harris, Mark Davis
Ut: Bip Roberts, Archi Cianfrocco!, Craig Shipley!!