Comments on: Cardinals Get a Shortstop, Padres Save Money http://ducksnorts.com/blog/2008/12/cardinals-get-a-shortstop-padres-save-money.html Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:39:32 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9 hourly 1 By: Steve C http://ducksnorts.com/blog/2008/12/cardinals-get-a-shortstop-padres-save-money.html/comment-page-1#comment-326442 Steve C Tue, 09 Dec 2008 15:21:16 +0000 http://ducksnorts.com/blog/?p=3107#comment-326442 #23@<a href="#comment-326153" rel="nofollow">Geoff Young</a>: Yeah, I should have been more clear in my first post. It's not that I think Greene makes or breaks the team, it's more that they are trading the only SS we have with no backup plan (that we know of) for the sole purpose of cutting payroll and they are doing the same thing with a once in a decade maybe once in a lifetime type pitcher. It's just frustrating because I think if they were not cutting the payroll by $30 mil then they could build a team that would have a very good shot at winning the NL west again. #23@Geoff Young: Yeah, I should have been more clear in my first post. It’s not that I think Greene makes or breaks the team, it’s more that they are trading the only SS we have with no backup plan (that we know of) for the sole purpose of cutting payroll and they are doing the same thing with a once in a decade maybe once in a lifetime type pitcher. It’s just frustrating because I think if they were not cutting the payroll by $30 mil then they could build a team that would have a very good shot at winning the NL west again.

]]> By: Geoff Young http://ducksnorts.com/blog/2008/12/cardinals-get-a-shortstop-padres-save-money.html/comment-page-1#comment-326153 Geoff Young Tue, 09 Dec 2008 06:00:27 +0000 http://ducksnorts.com/blog/?p=3107#comment-326153 #22@<a href="#comment-325904" rel="nofollow">Steve C</a>: Ah, now I understand why you are upset. I see 75-80 wins out of the Padres in '09 with or without Khalil. In my estimation, his presence wasn't going to make or break the team's chances. #22@Steve C: Ah, now I understand why you are upset. I see 75-80 wins out of the Padres in ‘09 with or without Khalil. In my estimation, his presence wasn’t going to make or break the team’s chances.

]]> By: Steve C http://ducksnorts.com/blog/2008/12/cardinals-get-a-shortstop-padres-save-money.html/comment-page-1#comment-325904 Steve C Mon, 08 Dec 2008 17:48:13 +0000 http://ducksnorts.com/blog/?p=3107#comment-325904 #21@<a href="#comment-325890" rel="nofollow">Geoff Young</a>: Much better in both cases...and even better odds to win the NL west again. They would have a very good shot to win the NL west this year if they kept Peavy at the top of the rotation and Greene at SS, trade either Headley or Kouz for a # 4 starter and with the additional money they have left ($24-$26 mil from Maddux, Wolf and Hoffy's contracts) they could sign another mid level starter (possibly Lowe or Perez at $8 to 10 mil a year), a mid level bullpen arm or two, a veteran backup catcher and a solid LF (Pat Burrell (might be too pricey), Raul Ibanez or at the very least Juan Rivera) The Padres could have a competitive team in the NL west with a line-up of: C: Hundley 1B: A-gon 2B: Denker/Antonelli/E-Gon 3B: Kouz or Headley SS: Greene LF: Solid FA CF: Gerut RF: Giles Bench: Rodriguez Venable Hairston E-Gon Veteran C Rotation: Peavy Young Lowe or Perez Pitcher from Kouz/Headley deal Beak/LeBlanc/Geer (if he does not need TJ) Pen: Bell FA #1 FA #2 Adams (when he is back) LeBlanc/Beak Hampson Meredith/Thatcher/other I think that team would have a much better shot at winning the NL west than a team without Peavy and Greene and that is mostly built out of AAAA guys and/or minor leagues who are not ready to play yet (depending on who they get if and when they move Peavy). #21@Geoff Young: Much better in both cases…and even better odds to win the NL west again.

They would have a very good shot to win the NL west this year if they kept Peavy at the top of the rotation and Greene at SS, trade either Headley or Kouz for a # 4 starter and with the additional money they have left ($24-$26 mil from Maddux, Wolf and Hoffy’s contracts) they could sign another mid level starter (possibly Lowe or Perez at $8 to 10 mil a year), a mid level bullpen arm or two, a veteran backup catcher and a solid LF (Pat Burrell (might be too pricey), Raul Ibanez or at the very least Juan Rivera)

The Padres could have a competitive team in the NL west with a line-up of:

C: Hundley
1B: A-gon
2B: Denker/Antonelli/E-Gon
3B: Kouz or Headley
SS: Greene
LF: Solid FA
CF: Gerut
RF: Giles

Bench:
Rodriguez
Venable
Hairston
E-Gon
Veteran C

Rotation:
Peavy
Young
Lowe or Perez
Pitcher from Kouz/Headley deal
Beak/LeBlanc/Geer (if he does not need TJ)

Pen:
Bell
FA #1
FA #2
Adams (when he is back)
LeBlanc/Beak
Hampson
Meredith/Thatcher/other

I think that team would have a much better shot at winning the NL west than a team without Peavy and Greene and that is mostly built out of AAAA guys and/or minor leagues who are not ready to play yet (depending on who they get if and when they move Peavy).

]]> By: Geoff Young http://ducksnorts.com/blog/2008/12/cardinals-get-a-shortstop-padres-save-money.html/comment-page-1#comment-325890 Geoff Young Mon, 08 Dec 2008 16:43:44 +0000 http://ducksnorts.com/blog/?p=3107#comment-325890 #20@<a href="#comment-325871" rel="nofollow">Steve C</a>: What kind of odds would you have given the Padres to win the World Series in 2009 with Khalil at shortstop and an overall payroll similar to last year's $74M? What kind of odds do you now give them with Luis Rodriguez (or some other stopgap) at shortstop and a payroll presumed to be at or near $40M? #20@Steve C: What kind of odds would you have given the Padres to win the World Series in 2009 with Khalil at shortstop and an overall payroll similar to last year’s $74M? What kind of odds do you now give them with Luis Rodriguez (or some other stopgap) at shortstop and a payroll presumed to be at or near $40M?

]]> By: Steve C http://ducksnorts.com/blog/2008/12/cardinals-get-a-shortstop-padres-save-money.html/comment-page-1#comment-325871 Steve C Mon, 08 Dec 2008 15:38:06 +0000 http://ducksnorts.com/blog/?p=3107#comment-325871 #18@<a href="#comment-325851" rel="nofollow">Geoff Young</a>: Trading the only shortstop in your organization at the lowest point in his value when you have no money to sign a legitimate FA SS and trading for one will open another hole in your organization was not a bad decision forced by the payroll? When the Padres were making their run from 04 to 07 their payrolls were in the same ballpark as the Twins, Indians and A's (the rays were horrible all four years). 2004: A's - 59,425,667 Padres - 55,384,833 Twins - 53,585,000 (made playoffs) Indians - 34,319,300 2005: Padres - 63,290,833 (made playoffs) Twins - 56,186,000 A's - 55,425,762 Indians - 41,502,500 2006: Padres - 69,896,141 (made playoffs) Twins - 63,396,006 (made playoffs) A's - 62,243,079 (made playoffs) Indians - 56,031,500 2007: A's - 79,366,940 Twins - 71,439,500 Indians - 61,673,267 (made playoffs) Padres - 58,110,567 http://content.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2007 I guess my point is that yes the Twins and A's have had success with limited payrolls but they were are always kind in the middle of the pack as far as total MLB payroll goes. #18@Geoff Young: Trading the only shortstop in your organization at the lowest point in his value when you have no money to sign a legitimate FA SS and trading for one will open another hole in your organization was not a bad decision forced by the payroll?

When the Padres were making their run from 04 to 07 their payrolls were in the same ballpark as the Twins, Indians and A’s (the rays were horrible all four years).

2004:
A’s – 59,425,667
Padres – 55,384,833
Twins – 53,585,000 (made playoffs)
Indians – 34,319,300

2005:
Padres – 63,290,833 (made playoffs)
Twins – 56,186,000
A’s – 55,425,762
Indians – 41,502,500

2006:
Padres – 69,896,141 (made playoffs)
Twins – 63,396,006 (made playoffs)
A’s – 62,243,079 (made playoffs)
Indians – 56,031,500

2007:
A’s – 79,366,940
Twins – 71,439,500
Indians – 61,673,267 (made playoffs)
Padres – 58,110,567

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2007

I guess my point is that yes the Twins and A’s have had success with limited payrolls but they were are always kind in the middle of the pack as far as total MLB payroll goes.

]]> By: Tom Waits http://ducksnorts.com/blog/2008/12/cardinals-get-a-shortstop-padres-save-money.html/comment-page-1#comment-325860 Tom Waits Mon, 08 Dec 2008 15:03:33 +0000 http://ducksnorts.com/blog/?p=3107#comment-325860 #17@<a href="#comment-325733" rel="nofollow">Steve C</a>: Well said. I brought that up with Tim Sullivan in a recent chat -- the idea that Petco only generates 40M in revenue or that Moores was personally floating nearly half their payroll is laughable. Most of their projected 2009 payroll will be covered by MLB shared revenues before a single fan buys a ticket. Any checks that Moores was writing were matters of choice, going all the way back to how the team structured its Petco loan. And yes, the Rays were in a much stronger position to compete on 40M. At least we're in the NL West, where no one has to stay down for long. But our internal pitching options run from mediocre to bad, and that's not going to be easy to fix. #17@Steve C: Well said. I brought that up with Tim Sullivan in a recent chat — the idea that Petco only generates 40M in revenue or that Moores was personally floating nearly half their payroll is laughable. Most of their projected 2009 payroll will be covered by MLB shared revenues before a single fan buys a ticket. Any checks that Moores was writing were matters of choice, going all the way back to how the team structured its Petco loan.

And yes, the Rays were in a much stronger position to compete on 40M. At least we’re in the NL West, where no one has to stay down for long. But our internal pitching options run from mediocre to bad, and that’s not going to be easy to fix.

]]> By: Geoff Young http://ducksnorts.com/blog/2008/12/cardinals-get-a-shortstop-padres-save-money.html/comment-page-1#comment-325851 Geoff Young Mon, 08 Dec 2008 14:44:35 +0000 http://ducksnorts.com/blog/?p=3107#comment-325851 #17@<a href="#comment-325733" rel="nofollow">Steve C</a>: The larger point is that teams with small payrolls reach the playoffs almost every year, whether it be the A's, Indians, Rays, Twins... Lack of money is not an acceptable excuse. <blockquote>Yes, the team needs to make smart decisions, but when you don't have the payroll to do it, then you end up making bad decisions...</blockquote> Not correct. Size of payroll has nothing whatsoever to do with the ability to make good decisions. #17@Steve C: The larger point is that teams with small payrolls reach the playoffs almost every year, whether it be the A’s, Indians, Rays, Twins… Lack of money is not an acceptable excuse.

Yes, the team needs to make smart decisions, but when you don’t have the payroll to do it, then you end up making bad decisions…

Not correct. Size of payroll has nothing whatsoever to do with the ability to make good decisions.

]]> By: Steve C http://ducksnorts.com/blog/2008/12/cardinals-get-a-shortstop-padres-save-money.html/comment-page-1#comment-325733 Steve C Mon, 08 Dec 2008 06:10:34 +0000 http://ducksnorts.com/blog/?p=3107#comment-325733 #16@<a href="#comment-325701" rel="nofollow">Geoff Young</a>: It's easy to point to the rays payroll and say look it can be done on a $40 mil budget but look at how many dreadful season they had to sit through to get all of the top draft picks they used to build their current team (and they pay above slot in the draft). Yes, the team needs to make smart decisions, but when you don’t have the payroll to do it, then you end up making bad decisions like trading away the only legitimate shortstop in your entire system for a AAA relief pitcher, treating your hall-of-fame closer like dirt, being forced to trade away one of the best pitchers in baseball, having Baek be your #2 starter…the list goes on…. I don’t get the whole thing about Moores not dumping money into the team this year…has he really been putting $30 mil of his own money every year since the team has left Petco? Does the team only generate $40 mil in revenue each year (including the money they get from MLB from the Luxury tax and profit sharing)? Yes, I know payroll is not everything but when you are getting rid of very good players that you developed because you are slashing the payroll almost in half and bringing it back to the Qualcomm days (when the team generated far less revenue due to the stadium issues) and you don't have the farm system in place yet to do what the Rays did then it is a major factor... #16@Geoff Young: It’s easy to point to the rays payroll and say look it can be done on a $40 mil budget but look at how many dreadful season they had to sit through to get all of the top draft picks they used to build their current team (and they pay above slot in the draft).

Yes, the team needs to make smart decisions, but when you don’t have the payroll to do it, then you end up making bad decisions like trading away the only legitimate shortstop in your entire system for a AAA relief pitcher, treating your hall-of-fame closer like dirt, being forced to trade away one of the best pitchers in baseball, having Baek be your #2 starter…the list goes on….

I don’t get the whole thing about Moores not dumping money into the team this year…has he really been putting $30 mil of his own money every year since the team has left Petco? Does the team only generate $40 mil in revenue each year (including the money they get from MLB from the Luxury tax and profit sharing)?

Yes, I know payroll is not everything but when you are getting rid of very good players that you developed because you are slashing the payroll almost in half and bringing it back to the Qualcomm days (when the team generated far less revenue due to the stadium issues) and you don’t have the farm system in place yet to do what the Rays did then it is a major factor…

]]> By: Geoff Young http://ducksnorts.com/blog/2008/12/cardinals-get-a-shortstop-padres-save-money.html/comment-page-1#comment-325701 Geoff Young Mon, 08 Dec 2008 04:07:11 +0000 http://ducksnorts.com/blog/?p=3107#comment-325701 #14@<a href="#comment-325628" rel="nofollow">Oside Jon</a>: The drop has already started. Coming off an 89-win season, the Padres saw attendance fall by more than 360,000 last year. As for salaries, the Rays played in the World Series last year; their Opening Day payroll was $43.7M. The Mariners spent $118M and lost 101 games. Money is nice, but good decision making and luck are better. #14@Oside Jon: The drop has already started. Coming off an 89-win season, the Padres saw attendance fall by more than 360,000 last year. As for salaries, the Rays played in the World Series last year; their Opening Day payroll was $43.7M. The Mariners spent $118M and lost 101 games. Money is nice, but good decision making and luck are better.

]]> By: Coronado Mike http://ducksnorts.com/blog/2008/12/cardinals-get-a-shortstop-padres-save-money.html/comment-page-1#comment-325692 Coronado Mike Mon, 08 Dec 2008 03:15:09 +0000 http://ducksnorts.com/blog/?p=3107#comment-325692 Good luck to KG...the source of so many great discussions around here... Phantom, what will we ever do without him? You and I might actually agree on stuff! Good luck to KG…the source of so many great discussions around here…

Phantom, what will we ever do without him? You and I might actually agree on stuff!

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