It’s the eighth inning of a 1-1 tie. You have runners at first and second, nobody out. The batter chases a 2-1 pitch at the ankles on a bunt attempt. You don’t score. You proceed to give up two solo shots in the top of the ninth and then go down without so much as a whimper in the bottom half.
That is terrible baseball. What’s to analyze?
168 Comments
You are right, nothing to analyze. So, anyone else check out those red, white and blue caps the teams will be wearing?
Interesting “Related Posts” Geoff…I am not one to usually notice those things, but it is a little macabre, dontcha think?
Did anyone else think it was dumb to try to have Gerut bunt there in the first place? The guy hadn’t had a sacrifice since 2005. Now I realize that he’s a MFL (hat tip to Ted William and Jim Bouton in Ball Four) ballplayer, but the worst that could have happened in that situation was a GIDP. Jody hits the ball pretty damn hard, and I would have felt a little more comfortable letting him swing away.
Then again, hindsight is 20/20. I’m pretty sure that as I was watching the AB, that I was wondering to myself what the hell Buddy was thinking. Unfortunately, I’ve wondered that all too often this year.
Posts with “killed” in the title might do that. Damn emotionless computers!
A: Bunting is a learnable skill; every player should be capable of laying down a bunt.
B: Asking a guy who can’t bunt to do so is throwing away an at bat.
C: Everyone knew a bunt was coming so why not pinch hit with the one guy on the team who can bunt, Greg Maddux?
Nevermind that they never would have been in that situation if they could have scored more than one run off Slowey. Yet another pitcher sets a season high strikeout mark against the Padres.
On the positive side, both Slowey an Nathan are on my fantasy team. Thanks Pads!
3. That was my thought at the time. I liked the choice to use Stansberry for a sac bunt — reducing the risk of a Tony Clark twin killing – but Gerut gets down the line pretty fast and a single (probably) puts us ahead. And a force play at third with the catcher running is not a gimme sacrifice either.
Given that, even if successful, it’s no guarrantee the run comes in without a hit (~70%? A bit less for the Padres perhaps?), I don’t think it was worth giving up the out. Then again, a strikeout wasn’t so hot either.
It is time for the FO to stop hemming and hawing about weather they are buyers, or sellers and find the best possible deals for: Maddux, Wolf and Giles.
Turning away from the game, which is not fun the next morning on MLBTV…..the Mets are said to be considering a demotion of Ollie Perez. He’s not having the kind of season you’d want before free agency. Should the Padres consider trading for him now in order to get a start on negotiations? When he was traded to Pittsburgh he said he’d love to come back to the Padres someday. He could be reunited with Balsley, who coached him in the minors.
We don’t have that many trading chips, and I’m not sure how much extra credit we’d get for freeing him from NY. But it might be worth thinking about.
#2@Coronado Mike: Yeah, I guess it is.
#8@Tom Waits: It’s not a horrible idea, IMO. He could be a serviceable fifth starter. I’d be in favor of slotting him there until he showed some promise.
Do the Mets really expect to get much back for him? He’s about to be a FA and he’s not exactly setting the world on fire. Wouldn’t a decent minor league arm do it?
#9@Geoff Young: Not noticing any difference without avatars.
#10@Phantom: The Mets don’t have that much incentive to move him, though. If they’re looking to the playoffs he’s a pitcher who can possibly give you 12-15 strikeouts in a game. Nobody else on their staff has the same potential to dominate. Not even Pedro, anymore. I think they’d be looking for immediate major league help back.
I’m thinking Trevor doesn’t an extension when his contract expires this year. Brutal!
#13@LaMar: If the booing was directed at him and not the overall play of the team….poor caddying.
The failed bunt attempts was when I first noticed the booing.
The frustration of witnessing basic fundamentals being executed so poorly, flowed over into the ninth inning back to back HRs.
The game fell apart for the Padres very quickly.
It was a terrible 8th and 9th inning.
#12@Tom Waits: True, but I would think that if they’re considering demoting him, that perhaps their opinions have sourfed enough that they would be happy to get anything back. Could we do it for like a Clay Henlsey type?
#16@Phantom: I think the demotion is to the pen, not to the minors. If he’s still a Met he can contribute – nasty LOOGY, spot starter, possibly dominant in the stretch run. They have to balance living with him another 3 months, with the good and bad that can bring, with what they’d get in trade. Unless they’re getting an arm to replace him, from us or someone, I don’t see it happening.
If their minor league system hadn’t been so stripped for Santana, maybe we could have built something around Wolf + Giles (to replace Alou) for Heilman, Perez, and a top prospect. They seem likely to hold onto Fernando Martinez.
I’m sorry but I need to get something off my chest. I red that opening article on the SDUT and the snide and self-righteous remarks by Clark, Estes, Peavy and everyone else about the fans booing trevor. I wasn’t at the game but I was booing just the same at home. And the UT is full of comments about how we are wrong for booing, how we forget what a great guy trevor is etc.
Personally speaking to everyone who commented in that article; **** you. With the exception of A-Gon not one of them has done a damn thing all year. You all deserve to be booed, and that includes Trevor Hoffman who’s having one of his worst years in a long time. Do not be snide with us, those dumb fans who pay your salary from our harder earned salary, because we are watching you all fail to execute, fail to play and obviously not give a rat’s ***.
What you mentioned Geoff, that’s on the players who have CONSISTENTLY been incapable of getting anything done and even more so on the coaches who are both not teaching their players and not punishing them for their mistakes. We have a milktoast team with a pathetic excuse of a leader which needs to be blown up.
7. Why trade Giles? He’s signed to a fair contract for next year, and good corner outfielders are not as easy to find as people think.
#19@Mike Champion: Yeah, OG is not the easiest decision to make. He’s been productive and his option next year is not onerous. It all depends on what you get back for him and how confident you are that the 2009 Padres will be improved enough to compete.
#18: So, how ARE you feeling about the team’s play thus far?
#12 Tom Waits, you don’t think Johan Santana has the potential to dominate?
#3@Phantom: #5@Anthony: I initially thought that it would be a better idea to send Maddux up to bunt, instead of Stansberry, who looked like he had never been asked to bunt in his life. But by batting Stansberry, there was a bit more flexibility (hit-and-run or swing away once the bunt wasn’t executed), and it worked out.
But I absolutely hated the idea of having the hottest hitter on the team bunt with runners on 1st and 2nd and nobody out. I think all of us who follow the team on a daily basis realize that this particluar team is not very good at playing for one run. Wouldn’t the manager know that better than anyone? This team is not much for execution. Even if he gets the bunt down, the Pads have not been very good with a runner at third and less than two outs. So why not let Jody swing away? He doesn’t hit into many DP’s. Terrible call by Black. Plus, the reliever was all over the place. Why not give Gerut the take sign after he didn’t come close on the first two pitches? Geez, what an awful way to lose a game.
#22@Gus: Geez, total brain fart. Apologies.
#24@Tom Waits: Dang, that synonym for “toot” is filtered.
#23@JMAR: I think you articulate this beautifully. I totally and completely agree.
On the whole fans booing thing:
I think it’s classless to boo a failure to perform. You can boo players for being dicks, for being classless, or for not hustling. But in a sport that lauds players who have successful at-bats only 30% of the time, booing a player’s performance seems somewhat hypocrticial.
#14@Tom Waits: It was not a good night for Padre fans at Petco, between the booing of the second or third best player in franchise history and the wave getting more attention than the game in the seventh as the Padres were tying the score.
#26@Phantom: Especially the “lack of effort” part. Only the most brazen cadillacing can be detected from the stands (or TV). Hoffman made two bad pitches and his margin for error is almost nonexistent these days. Today he’ll go through the same rigorous workout he’s undertaken for almost 15 years. No lack of effort, possibly just a lack of the same ability. It happens to everyone, and it’s nothing to be booed.
I don’t see that any current Padre suffers from a lack of effort or heart. Even if they did nobody here is qualified to diagnose it.
#26@Phantom: I am not much of a boo’er. Maybe 2-3 times I have ever done so, but I will leave judgement of etiquette to Miss Manners.
Booing doesnt happen in a vacuum. I think it is a culmination of many failures this season along with the deception we have been served by the FO.
#18@Loren: There is a mammoth gulf between failure to execute and not caring, and I do not understand automatically linking the two. For my money, the only reason you Boo the home team, is lack of effort. I don’t see much point in Booing a pitcher, because he failed to locate a fastball.
How often should a batter take the first pitch?
I understand the value of a patient approach at the plate … getting a starting pitcher’s pitch count up … waiting for a mistake … drawing walks …
But there is a limit, right? If a batter takes too many first pitches, then he’ll too often be down in the count 0-1.
That seemed to happen more than it should have last night …
Once Slowey proved he could and was going to throw strike one on the first pitch, it seems like the Padre hitters could have benefited by being more aggressive at the start of their ABs.
Here’s a link where you can see what happened, pitch-by-pitch …
http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/gamecenter/playbyplay/MLB_20080624_MIN@SD
#26@Phantom:
That’s pretty much what Jim Rome of all people said to lead off his show this morning.
#30@Field39: There were 2 fastballs in a row that were not located. There were also two attempts to bunt that were poorly executed. Again, it is not really my style to boo, but I think fans who pay $50-100/game are entitled to express their dissatisfaction.
#32@Stephen: Perhaps Rome should go to YouTube and watch his interview with Jim Everett.
Being lectured by Jim Rome about fan behavior, is like being lectured about ethics by Duke Cunningham.
Or being lectured about mental stability by Milton Bradley.
Or being….I got a thousand more, but I think you get the picture
Also, someone might want to tell Jody Gerut that he really is not a base stealer despite the fact that he feels obligated now that he is penciled daily into the leadoff spot.
About the booing.
I was at the game last night. In the 8th inning at least, I, along with most of the people around me, were booing Bud Black when Gerut was trying to bunt. I think every other word I heard during Gerut’s at bat was idiot, or the like, but worse. And I was sitting around a lot of retiree/season-ticket holders.
For the 9th, it seemed like an overload of frustration with the entire game and season. Poor hitting with men on, poor managerial decisions, and a bullpen that has one of the worst ERAs in the league, etc.
On a different note, I was sitting just behind the Padres dugout (thanks for the tix!!!) and had a great view of the batter’s box. It is no wonder that Greene is having a tough time hitting this year. I have rarely seen any hitter move around so much in the box.
While the pitcher is getting ready, Greene is constantly shifting his weight between his front foot and back foot – about 2 shoulder widths apart. At the same time, he is waggling the bat and his top hand is squeezing and letting go of the bat. Visible from a good 60 feet.
As the pitcher comes set and starts his motion, Greene shifts his weight to his back foot, brings his front foot back to just apart one shoulder-width apart, cocks his bat and twists his trunk to his right while dropping his head slightly.
It doesn’t seem possible to be consistent with that much movement.
Lastly, can anyone understand the words in the 300 clip they play for Heath Bell.? Just play the theme music, that is stirring enough.
In my opinion, there are two guys that should be exempt from ever getting booed by Padre fans, Tony Gwynn and Trevor Hoffman. These are easily the two greatest Padres of all-time. First-ballot Hall-of-Famers who spent 15+ season with the team.
However, I highly doubt that yesterday’s boos were directed at Hoffman. Yes, he was on the mound and he gave up two mammoth homers, serving up BP fastball’s to the 7 and 8 hitters on the team with the least amount of homers in baseball. But, I’m guessing those fans were ready to boo whenever and however that game was lost, based on that brutal bottom of the 8th. That, and the fact that our team is 14 games under .500.
It’s silly for the players to come to Hoffman’s defense. Those boos are meant for the sorry performance of the entire team this season. Not just a few bad games from Hoffman.
#33@parlo: For their entertainment dollar the fans are guaranteed a contest, not a win. Perhaps they would of been satisfied, if following the second home run, Bud had gone out their and recreated the opening scene from “Branded.”
OT: Is anyone else having a problem with the preview function?
#38@Field39: Yes.
I think if you’re on a last-place team, 14 games under .500, 2nd-worst record in the NL, 3rd-worst record in MLB, you should EXPECT to get booed, not vice versa.
I mean, I am not the booing type at all, but what situation would merit it more? I certainly don’t get the sense that the Padres aren’t trying, but time and time again you see poor execution.
As a fan, if you want to boo the coaches or management but not the players, or if you want to boo the players and coaches but not management, it still sounds the same in the stadium. It sounds like boos, and that doesn’t mean the Padres don’t love Trevor, or think the guys aren’t trying. It means they think this team sucks, and I don’t blame them for it.
#38@Field39: Straw Man arguments always seem like an attempt to paint others with too wide a brush.
I dont know of any fan attending a game who ever believed they were guaranteed a victory.
#38@Field39: Yes to both your comment and the Preview question. Double points for the Chuck Connors reference.
Fans booing the bunt decision, that’s fine. Bunts are rarely a good call and Black seems, in an unscientific opinion, to have regressed in his game management this season.
Booing Hoffman, and justifying it by claiming they can tell he didn’t care, is dishonest and classless.
#28@Tom Waits:
I don’t see that any current Padre suffers from a lack of effort or heart. Even if they did nobody here is qualified to diagnose it.
Where does “underachieving” fall in the whole scheme of things? Does it relate to effort or heart?
#42@Tom Waits: Who is claiming that they booed because Hoffman “doesnt care” ????
#43@Jeremy: If a player is working hard and doing everything to put himself in a position to succeed, but isn’t, that’s either bad luck or a simple lack of skill or physical ability. I don’t see a reason to boo someone for those things.
IMO, fans tend to think player effort and heart matter more than they do because it mentally levels the playing field. For some fans, it’s a way of believing that there’s something that fan would do better on the field than the players themselves. Like, “If I had that much physical talent, there’s no way I’d go down swinging at 3 sliders.” Sure they would, if Brad Lidge was on that night.
#44@parlo:
Excerpts from Loren: You all deserve to be booed, and that includes Trevor Hoffman who’s having one of his worst years in a long time. Do not be snide with us, those dumb fans who pay your salary from our harder earned salary, because we are watching you all fail to execute, fail to play and obviously not give a rat’s ***.
Rat’s behind, not caring, seem to be the same thing to me.
#34@parlo:
Get over the Everett thing. That was, what, 12-15 years ago?
You didn’t listen, I take it, nor did I even try to get across his tone. It wasn’t lecturing. “If I was there in the stands, I’m not booing Trevor Hoffman. I understand paying the $ gives someone the right to boo. I understand the frustration. Hoffman is really struggling this year, but it wasn’t a case of dogging it, lack of effort etc.”
#46@Tom Waits: Oh yeah, I forgot about that post. HA! Nonetheless, trying to paint anyone who booed as being of similar mind seems like a stretch.
44;
Duly noted, I was on a rant
And I do believe you can be booed for a continual failure to perform including Hoffy. I love him, he’s a great player and I’ll love having him in cooperstown but he isn’t performing
#45@Tom Waits:
I can see your point. You hit on something very important here:
Like, “If I had that much physical talent, there’s no way I’d go down swinging at 3 sliders.â€
That is the type of attitude or statement that has always been like fingernails on the chalkboard to me. Why again are we all sitting at home or the park watching and not on the field playing?…Exactly.
#47@Stephen: You are absolutely correct. I do not listen to talk radio of any kind.
Booing in San Diego. Great, the tranquil baseball town shows some passion……I am sure if you even asked Hoffman he would say that he would have been booing himself.
To boo or not to boo, a question or debate that would only take place in San Diego.
After all, what’s the big deal ?
#48@parlo:
It’s better that way. I have a short commute, so my exposure is limited. I do think the statute of limitations has passed on the Everett thing. Rome — on radio at least — isn’t nearly as bad as some make him out to be.
#48@parlo: Most posts about this topic seem to be “booing certain things makes sense, booing other things does not.” I don’t see anyone wielding a broad brush or a spray can.
#49@Loren: It’s your nickel. And I don’t know how long you’ve been watching the Padres. But 6 years from now I wouldn’t want to remember that in Hoffman’s 16th season in San Diego I gave him the business based on 5 to 10 appearances. I’d feel pretty rotten about myself. There have been years when Hoffman was one of only 2 or 3 players worth a darn on the whole squad. I’d feel pretty rotten if I booed a man with his record due to 1/3 of a season’s worth of poor performances.
#53@Stephen: Fair enough.
What I do want to clear up is my view of booing. I am not one to boo. I am more likely to commiserate with the fan sitting next to me, or come on a site such as this and express my displeasure.
What I disagree with, is the attempt to portray anyone who boos as some sort of mindless lout who knows nothing about the game.
If GY can complain on here that this is “terrible baseball”, I certainly dont see why the paying customers at the game cant voice their displeasure.
#55@parlo: No disagreement there. And I don’t read any of the posts here going the “mindless lout” route.
#56@Tom Waits: Perhaps Im being overly critical of these comments:
“Classless”, “hypocritical”, post #38, “If I had that much talent”, “brazen cadillacing”.
IMO, that portrays people who boo as rather boorish fans.
I dislike booing.
Is it constructive? Doubtful.
Would you do it if you were face to face with the person? Doubtful.
Do you feel you have some right because you are paying for the product?
It’s disrespectful to the person as a person, in my opinion. I can understand it happening — we all get emotionally wrapped up in rooting for our teams and we do things without thinking. I’m not pretending I’m a saint.
#55@parlo: But it is completely different than commentary or analysis in the paper or on a blog. It’s intended to make the other person feel bad. Let’s not pretend a “boo” is well thought constructive commentary or analysis. It’s an emotional outburst, sometimes meant to “get back” at the player for screwing up. Comparing it to a day after blog is a joke. The people doing it aren’t mindless louts, but the act itself is mindless.
But aside from general booing, booing Trevor is ridiculous. This is the SECOND GREATEST PADRE of all time. So he blows a few saves at 41. Get over yourself. 95% of the people booing haven’t accomplished half of what Trevor has, and 100% of them have contributed less to the Padres over the years. This day to day mentality is embarassing sometimes.
And if you were booing Black, well, again, if it is well thought out, you’d realize that “BOOOO” doesn’t really get that point across, does it?
#57@parlo: Those comments, to my mind, were directed specifically at people who boo because (they claim) they can tell the player is dogging it. I don’t think fans, except in the most extreme cases, can determine that a player is flat-out not trying. When people say they’re booing for Reason X, and they can’t possibly actually know that Reason X occurred, that’s what most of the posts here seem to have a problem with.
#58@Alan: I expect Black understood who those particular boos were directed at. There aren’t a lot of other options for expressing your displeasure with a decision. No instant voting buttons on your armrest. Nobody in the dugout is going to notice if you walk out.
I remember Yankee fans booing Mariano Rivera last season. Big deal. What did it mean ? Nothing.
It’s part of the game. Probably all that now sit in the Hall of Fame where booed at some time by the home town fans.
Only in San Diego would this be an issue.
#60@JP: How much do you want to bet I can find stories about the Mariano Rivera booing being unjustified and/or dumb? It’s not just an issue in San Diego. It was a story when Philly fans booed their team early this season.
I understand the players don’t like being booed, but is it really that big of a deal? Or are these players like Darryl Strawberry when he appeared on the Simpsons? (I looked for clip of that but couldn’t find it anywhere, I suspect that we could use some humor!)
However Black, Clark and Peavy should keep their mouth shut about complaining about it. If they are trying to get the fans to turn on the team, I think that’s the best way of doing it. I don’t think they are going to get much sympathy from anyone.
#58@Alan: I disagree. Using your rationale, only newspaper reporters and bloggers are allowed to voice frustration or any dissatisfaction. Fans at the game must suppress any emotion.
These are very well payed millionaires who are employed by an obscenely rich owner. They charge outrageous prices and demand subsidies from every taxpayer. They are given applause, and even parades when they succeed. I see no harm in a paying customer voicing displeasure when they witness what has taken place last night and this season.
#59@Tom Waits: I kind of like the buttons on the arm rest thing.
I remember as a young kid hearing Red’s fans booing Johnny Bench in their championship year of 1976. If you brought that to Bench’s attention now, what do you think his reaction would be ?
#61@Tom Waits: Perhaps, but would you agree that the attention to such an issue is very short term. It’s part of the game !
#65@JP: I don’t know, but I think it’s quite possible he would remember it, and not fondly.
#66@JP: The Padres-Twins game ended about 14 hours ago.
For some perspective from Reds blogger :
I used to sit in the stands at Riverfront in the early 70’s and hear them boo Johnny Bench. I don’t think I’ve heard anyone booed as much a Bench was.
“Deadcat” comments on Ohio Sports Fan Blog (2007)
#67@Tom Waits: Give it another 10 hours.
Bench would probably laugh it off and say that it is part of the game. You think he harbors any bitterness whatsoever about being booed ?
#63@parlo: I really would like to understand what the size of the paycheck has to do with this discussion. Yes, they are well paid for a very specialized skill…why does that have ANYTHING to do with booing or not?
#12@Tom Waits: No one else? I’ve heard that Johan Santana guy is pretty good.
#68@JP: Bench also made some comments about the Vietnam War, which clouds the issue. Seaver did the same thing (“if the Mets can win the WS, then the US can certainly find a way to end the Vietnam War”). Right wingers attacked him for it, and Bench came to his defense.
Personally, I would like to see Hoffman throw that pitch he threw to Harris to a real power hitter. Imagine if he threw that pitch to Albert Pujols, where would it have ended up? Off the scoreboard maybe?
Seriously, if A-Gon is in the Home Run Derby before the All-Star Game this year he should get Hoffman to be his pitcher. Throw some meatballs like he did last night and Adrian would win for sure!
#70@Coronado Mike: If the fans and the taxpayers are the ones who pay the salaries, then I think they are entitled to express dissatisfaction.
#73@Schlom: This is the sort of reactionary drivel that makes the arguement for the other side in this whole “booing” arguement. What Hoffman doesn’t deserve is this sort of ****.
#72@parlo: This is interesting. I am a history fanatic so I find this tidbit worth investigating. I don’t think it had anything to do with Reds fans booing Bench though(.234 in ‘76).
#74@parlo: I “pay” the salary of teachers, but I don’t walk around booing them for a bad performance…but you are right, they don’t make more than me, so that makes them safe.
I don’t know, I guess it is frustrating when salary is brought up…I really don’t see how what their income is or how much John Moores has in the bank has ANYTHING to do with the discussion of booing…
#76@JP: No, certainly not in 1976.
This happened in 1969 -70 or so. It blew over. Within no time Bench was appearing on HeeHaw and doing his Krylon paint commercials. Like many outrages, it was short lived.
#18@Loren: What the …?
“It’s disheartening, knowing what Trevor has meant not only to the organization but the city, and his level of accomplishment is unmatched in our game,” Clark said.
Snide? Self-righteous? I see nothing of the sort in Clark’s comment. Clearly you disagree with the sentiments of Peavy and Estes and have taken them to be snide and self-righteous, but I think you are completely off the mark with regards to Clark.
And you’re not personally speaking to anyone who commented in the article by posting in DS. Maybe it’s time to take a deep breath, step back from the cliff and realize the Padres are having a bad year but it’s not the end of the world.
#71@Pat: You’re late to the party. Gus already mocked my vapor lack. I’ve poured ashes on my pate.
#69@JP: Neither one of us knows what Johnny Bench thinks about his booing, whether it bothered him when it happened, or how long it bothered him. I wouldn’t try to assign any probability to any particular reaction. It’s quite possible it didn’t bother him at all when it happened or afterwards, just as it’s quite possible that it stuck in his craw for a long time. There are some players who do remember it well after the event occurs. Besides, Bench in the early 70s was not Bench in 1982 or 1983, which is more analogous to Trevor’s situation. He’d been a great player by then, but 5-6 years with the same team doesn’t earn you same loyalty as 16 or 17. Not in my eyees, anyway.
#74@parlo: Fans aren’t paying the salaries, anymore than I’m paying the salary of an autoworker when I buy a car. I’m paying a price for a commodity or service. What the company who provides the commodity or service does with the money I pay them is their concern.
But I’m not anti-booing. It’s the “dishonest” booing that bugs me.
#28@Tom Waits: Hear, hear!!!!!!
I was saying Boo-urns.
#77@Coronado Mike: If parents hold a rally to express their displeasure with a school district, do you get equally outraged ? Do you go on blogs and say that parents dont have a right to voice dissatisfaction ?
Just wondering,…. since you brought up the teacher scenario.
#75@JP: Hey, I’m not blaming Hoffman, it’s not like he threw that meatball on purpose. I’m generally curious. The hardest hit ball I’ve ever seen was that home run McGwire hit off a Randy Johnson fastball in the Kingdome — that pitch by Hoffman probably wouldn’t have gone as far as it wasn’t thrown as hard but it might have been one of the “worst” (or best depending on your perspective) pitch I’ve ever seen. Seriously, how about Branyan? He hits monster shots, do you think the Park is out of range? Personally, I’d like to see that.
As far as the game goes, to me, a loss is a loss. Sure I’d rather see them win but do you think Trevor is going to dwell on those pitches he threw? I doubt it. Same with the booing. Sure it’s better to be not booed, but is it really that big of a deal? The only reason Trevor cares is because of what happened to lead to the booing, not the booing itself.
#82@Hans Moleman: Thank you…that laugh was perfect.
#83@parlo: My basic point is that what they make matters not in this discussion. That is all.
#75@JP: To quote William Munny from Unforgiven, “Deserves got nothing to do with it.”
#80@Tom Waits: A spectator sport is not the same as an auto plant or an elementary classroom.
They didnt sell tickets to watch my car be assembled. And my 9th grade science class was not held in Jack Murphy Stadium. They dont throw parades when my car passes its smog test. My HS principal did not demand a new facility, or else the students were being shipped to Washington DC. There are no Hall of Fames for factory workers.
#86@Coronado Mike: I hear you. My point was simply that they are highly paid professionals involved in a spectator sport. It goes with the territory. Comics, musicians etc all face similar circumstances from time to time in their branch of entertainment.
#88@parlo: You are NOT paying their salaries. The taxpayers are NOT paying their salaries. That’s a specious argument.
People can do what they want in the ballpark, short of violating the club’s rules of behavior. But let’s not kid ourselves as to our justification for doing it. We can’t tell if Player Jones doesn’t care. We don’t pay the player’s salaries.
#84@Schlom:
In terms of hardest homeruns, this one by McGwire in 1998 off Dan Miceli is the best for me. I was sitting out in right center and you could tell it was a monster from the crack of the bat. I remember thinking as it left the bat that it was going faster and higher than normal. I think this was the left-center, loge shot.
#89@parlo: I agree, public entertainers willingly took jobs that expose them to boos. I don’t think many people believe it should be off-limits. My distinction (and perhaps I’m being overly fine about it) concerns the reasons people give.
“I booed because he didn’t even try” is rarely supported by anything save delusions and projections.
“I can boo because I pay their salaries” isn’t true. Well, maybe “true” isn’t the best word, it doesn’t hold together might be better. “I can boo because I paid the money to get in,” that’s internally consistent.
I know I am late to the discussion… but…
I was at the game.
I boo’d Trevor.
I did so because I was frustrated with the game/team/season. Not directed at Trevor, just pissed in general, he just happened to be the recipient.
Also, however made the point that booing is only an issue in San Diego is absolutely correct… you think they’d run an article like the one in the UT in Philly/Chicago/New York?
Nope.
#91@kelly in sd: I think that was actually Boeringer. If it wasn’t, it’s hard to imagine a ball hit harder than the one Big Mac popped off Brian. The UT had a picture of the guy it nearly killed. It went 450+ and it got there in a hurry.
#93@Richard D.: Well, they have run articles like this in NY and Chicago. I found some without trying too hard. Last September Zambrano was booed in Chicago. Made the national news, not just the locals.
#92@Tom Waits: As usual, I find that you and I agree overall, but spend an entire morning hammering out the 13% that we still have on the table. We are like a couple of arbitrators.
#96@parlo: Gotta nuke something.
Second Simpson reference of the day, but this time on my own byline.
#91@kelly in sd: There was a line drive home run, hit by Jack Clark, before he was Padre. It sounded like two rifle shots. First the ball off then bat, then a couple of seconds later, the ball hitting hitting the second wall at Jack Murphy. I have never seen a ball get out faster.
UPDATE on the upcoming Baseball Prospectus event at Petco …
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/events/
–
When: July 11, 2008 7:05 pm
What: Ballpark Event Petco Park Padres vs. Braves
BP Reps: Joe Sheehan, Dave Pease
Join Paul DePodesta, Joe Sheehan and Dave Pease for baseball talk prior to the 7:05pm game start time. Ticket purchase information coming soon.
–
So, mark your calendar … and keep an eye out here (or the BP web page) for further details … see you there!
#63. Not at all. You can email Towers or Alderson any time. You can talk on sports radio, comment on this blog or whatever.
Booing doesn’t say anything — it’s like a baby crying. Something you don’t like happens and you make a noise with what intent? To say you’re sad? Surely you can show both more respect and more constructive criticism.
I don’t think anyone deserves more or less respect based on the amount of money they make. And just because you are a customer doesn’t give you free reign to be disrespectful. I have no idea what you do for a job, but if I were your customer, would I be allowed to scream at you without repercussion when you made a mistake? Somehow I doubt it.
#97@Tom Waits: Third as I referenced the “Homer At The Bat” episode earlier.
#77. This is exactly the heart of booing. It’s my opinion that most people who boo/heckle professional athletes…the motivation at the heart of it is that they enjoy being able to be an ass to someone who makes outrageous sums of money. It’s not voicing your displeasure in an attempt to make your team improve… it’s voicing your displeasure to feel better.
For a moment, you get to feel better than them. Good for you.
#83. How would voicing displeasure at a PTA meeting for teachers/school board be anything like booing? Usually there is constructive criticism offered — something to be acted upon. The teachers get a chance to respond and explain their point of view.
Yes, you’d be a jackass if you went to a school board meeting and shouted incoherently with an explained reason.
Kintera is adding fuel to the Bay/ Kouz rumors. He said that a Padre official called him over and told him about it. I do not understand, why a team offical would make a point of telling a talk show host, about current negoiations.
#100@Alan: If booing is like a baby crying, then what is complaining about it then? Another baby complaining about a baby crying?
I’m shocked people that people are getting so fired up about it. Seriously, who cares? If it bothers the players so much they should find a less stressful line of work. Or maybe they should perform better, that would stop the booing.
#102@Alan: Not only do I agree with all that, your post taught us something about the Ducksnorts word filter.
#49@Loren: Isn’t performing? How do you measure this? He has 15 saves with 3 blown, plus another 2 losses where he came in for a non-save situation (always an iffy use of him, it seems). In only 5 of his 27 appearances has he given up more than 1 hit, and in only one has he given up more than one BB (the June 1 horrendous outing in SF was an appearance where he gave up more than one of each).
So if by not performing you mean he’s down to around 80% from his historical high 80% success level, then, yes, he’s not performing. But, IMO, he’s become more like an average closer, which is a far cry from saying he’s not performing. Take a look at the guys with the most save opportunities this year, aka “Closers.” Many of them have blown 3 or more saves, just like Trevor has. Several of them have ERA’s over 4, just like Trevor has.
Unfortunately (or rather fortunately, imo) we are 1 of only 2 clubs who have enjoyed the long and successful run of a dominant closer during the modern bullpen era. Now we have a more run of the mill guy, who just happens to be the same guy who used to be a dominant guy. He’s performing, but not at the level we’re accustomed to.
I’d suggest to Padres fans they get used to it becuase it is highly unlikely we’ll have another guy like Trevor anytime in the near future. Hopefully we can occassionally get a guy who is great for a few seasons, but there really haven’t been any other guys like him except for Rivera. I know there have been other dominant guys who had long term success, but they all played for multiple teams. It’s highly likely we will run through a bunch of “Closers” over the next 10-20 years who will have an up and down level of performance. To get a Trevor or a Rivera who can dominate for over 10 years and stays with one team the entire time is extraordinary and I think we ought to be thankful and appreciate it.
#102@Alan: I simply thought that teachers and auto plant assembly workers were poor analogies.
Neither are spectator sports.
#54@Tom Waits: Bravo!
#107.
That’s true. I can see your point. And I completely understand booing; I just don’t do it. If I’m frustrated I’d much rather target the cause, not hit on an all-time great Padres trying his best when he already feels like crap.
#80@Tom Waits:
“I could not believe that,” he said. “That is as disheartening as it gets. I don’t understand it. When you look at all of his achievements, what he has meant, it’s ridiculous.”
Better late than never.
Since I gave you grief about that though I should commend you for your comments vis a vis Trevor. I think you’re right on.
#82@Hans Moleman: Classic!
One last point:
The next time you’re ready to complain about a player who leaves San Diego for more money elsewhere… remember that our fans booed Trevor Hoffman.
Why would you have any loyalty towards our fan base if we turn on a guy after that many years?
Jaff Decker goes 2-for-3 today with his 2nd SB of the season …
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2008_06_25_pdrrok_royrok_1
#99@LynchMob: Thanks LM. Looking forward to hanging with the DS crowd at this event.
#110@Pat: Odd, this was supposed to be quoted,
“You’re late to the party. Gus already mocked my vapor lack. I’ve poured ashes on my pate.”
Not,
“I could not believe that,†he said. “That is as disheartening as it gets. I don’t understand it. When you look at all of his achievements, what he has meant, it’s ridiculous.â€
#113@LynchMob: I love the way Decker commits to his swing. I mean, the video I’ve seen is him at BP, but he gets after it.
#115@Pat: Was that a subtle way of pointing out that I misspelled lock, too?
WC @ BP pointed to this article about pitcher usage …
http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080624&content_id=2993951&vkey=news_mil&fext=.jsp&c_id=mil
A Brewer’s minor league team will have the “starter” come in in the 3rd inning so he gets experience pitching in the 9th inning … the theory being that then he’ll be more likely to be able to throw a complete game by the time he reaches the big leagues. Worth a look-see, me thinks …
#112@Alan: I bet the boos were heard a lot louder by KT, SA and JM than anyone else. I dont think Moores will be showing up at Petco for some time (divorce aside)
#112@Alan: Do you really think the fans booing Trevor will have any effect on a player coming to San Diego? If that were true, how do players end up in Philadelphia or New York?
#117@Tom Waits: Heh. Know, eye half fownd its naught gud two mayk spellling flames.
#120@Schlom: I dont even think they are booing Trevor. The booing started with the failed bunts and exploded with the HRs. It is a culmination of everything that has gone wrong last night and this season. The boos do not exist in a vacuum.
I like to boo myself when a player doesn’t perform for his money. I like to bring up the fact too that players make amazing amounts of money compared to you and me whether they perform or not. I enjoy asking them if striking out with RISP is really worth 9 million. Of course this year I gone completely hourse and don’t bother anymore.
Trevor isn’t bothered by booing. Besides, that was booing for a terrible season that at one point had some promise.
Back to back HRs to win the game. Boooo, you stink.
#120@Schlom: He said it could impact a player’s willingness to STAY in San Diego, not their willingness to come here. Tough question to answer, imo. What makes a player stay long term? Is it lifestyle? How much does the fan support play a role? I tend to think it’s more about liking living in San Diego than it is about the fans.
But either way it’s not right to boo a guy who has meant so much to the franchise because he can’t get it done at 41 as well as he could at 31. Players age and skills deteriorate, but show a little class San Diego fans. What would Ron Burgundy say?!?!?!?!?!
#11@Pat: Lovely, thanks.
#38@Field39: Yeah, it appears to be broken. I’m having a wonderful week.
#125@Geoff Young: Sorry, Geoff. It’s probably just me.
#122@parlo: Even if they were booing Trevor, who cares? I’m sure he barely does. The fact is that he was horrible last night. Giving up home runs to good batters is one thing, but giving up back to back shots by Harris (3rd this season) and Buscher (1st of his career) isn’t very good.
#124@Pat: I suspect that money is the only factor for 99% of players.
Just listened to the latest SA 1090report. “On base percentage is WAY MORE important than slugging ave. I’m not sure I understand the formula. I’m no mathematician” Jeepers. I dont have the runs produced formula on my desk, as he should, but I’ve played with it enough, as many of you have, to know the the numerator gives equal value to OPS & SLG. Geoff, what’s up with this?
#126@Pat: I agree, it’s probably Pat.
#119: If you really wanted Moores, Towers or Alderson to get your message, you’d contact them. It’s not hard. Again, it all depends what your motivation for booing is. If it is really an intention of showing displeasure towards getting something to change, both direct, understandable communication and voting with your pocketbook are more effective but less cathartic.
#120: I don’t think it influences a player much either way, with the exception of extremes — like say, Rolen in Philly.
That said, I get tired of the fan double standard. We expect players to show loyalty to the fan base and do what Trevor and Tony have done and did throughout their career — take less money to stay in SD. Regardless of their motivations, fans always seem to be angry when a player leaves for cash.
Yet the same people who question a player’s integrity when they leave for FA; question their loyalty — they boo a HOF and total San Diegan after a few blown saves. And what’s the explanation? They aren’t getting enough for their money.
I’m just saying that if you’re going to treat it as a business transaction, don’t bitch when Moores raises prices or Adrian leaves for more money elsewhere. Trevor played here for years, gave up millions of dollars, but the fans can turn on him in an instant?
#128@malcolm: This is from a Hardball Times article called “Run Estimation for the Masses.”
OPS’ — …each point of On-Base Percentage is more valuable than each point of Slugging Percentage. How much more has been the topic of some discussion over the years, but a multiplier of 1.8 has been suggested. This turns out to be the value that results in the maximum correlation coefficient.
#112@Alan:
If someone leaves San Diego to go to a city where there is less booing, they are in for a pretty big disappointment.
#128
The denominator in the Runs Created Rate stat is per 27 outs…
OBP is more important than slugging in creating runs. I’ve seen different numbers, but one I remember is a better OPS predictor is 1.4*OBP + SLG.
But even then, a lot of the more advanced metrics use outs instead of PAs or ABs as the denominator, so the point is that it’s much more important not to make an out than to get an extra base.
#130@Alan: The FO heard the boos last night a lot more than some Email that will never be read by anyone other than a bored intern on coffee break.
Do you really think Moores is sitting in Texas reading emails from the fans about what to do about this seasons bullpen woes? Cmon now!
#87@Schlom: I was a little harsh on you on that one. I agree with your overall premise on this particular great debate that’s for sure. Let’s just leave out the low brow “a little leaguer can hit your stuff” type hyperbole.
#134@parlo: No, but I believe DePodesta is.
#123: Like I said, I don’t think it influences a player. I just find some of the attitudes hypocritical.
#134: The FO doesn’t pay attention to boos in a few games. You know what they pay attention to?
Revenues. If you don’t think the value is there, don’t go. There’s no need to disrespect another person.
Just my opinion. But I don’t buy the idea that booing is some well-thought out social protest that will affect mass change. It’s “I’m pissed and I don’t care how anyone else feels and these guys make millions and I paid a lot and so I’m booing.”
BTW, I’ve emailed Kevin Towers more than five times and he’s always responded candidly. It doesn’t mean something changed, but you’re a fool if you think the FO wanted the season to go this way.
As for Moores, it’s pretty silly to think that a few Boos are going to make him go, “Yeah, let me sink another $20MM into this team this year.”
#135@JP: Well, the fact is that some nights when his location is off, Trevor is going to horrible. Any pitch over the heart of the plate is going to get crushed — the only question is how elevated and how far the ball is going. Sometimes it will be a line drive or bang off the wall, and sometimes is will go into the 2nd deck. His only hope is that the batter just barely misses it and it ends up as a pop-up or fly ball to the warning track.
I understand the fans frustrations — no one wants to see a completely winnable game lost because the closer comes in throwing batting practice fastballs. However, it’s not like the Padres have any reason to make a switch — they aren’t going anywhere this season anyway and putting Bell in as closer just means they have to pay him more for no reason (it’s not like he’s any more valuable as a closer vs. a setup man).
#137@Alan: Sure, revenues get a lot of FO attention. But dont you think fan dissatisfaction is a prelude to lower attendance and therefore lower revenues.? I am not sure what some of you would prefer:
-An empty park?
-A fan base that focuses more on the Wave than the game?
A passionate fan base that gets frustrated certainly beats the other alternatives.
#139.
Like I’ve said, I understand the frustration. It’s certainly better than apathy in some ways as you point out.
I just think booing’s the wrong way to show frustration for the multitude of reasons I’ve pointed out: it’s ineffective; it’s not targeted; it’s not even coherent; it’s part of the psychology that these players aren’t people, they are things you pay for to entertain you.
Just how I feel. I certainly understand people who do it. I just choose not to and I think it is ridiculous to boo Trevor.
Tom, You’re right , it is debatible.I’ll look for that article. I believe there are some relatively recent articles suggesting a high ratio like 1.8:1 is offbase.Whatever, there seems to be a problem with the type of “hitter” the Padres acquire. SA admitted SD is 5th in BB, yet “the main problem with the team is OBP”. Another interesting story in the UT today quoted Black as putting great emphasis on RBI—- as in AGON.
#138@Schlom: Well Trevor struck out the first two batters he faced last night, so there wasn’t a whole lot of hoping against those batters. And batting practice fastballs still end up as outs a lot of the time – watch batting practice or home run derby to see that. Lots of “good pitching” is hitters missing hittable pitches. And Trevor’s really not getting hit that hard this year – batters are hitting like Khalil Greene against him – .248/.290/.436.
But yeah, he does throw a very hittable fastball, as we saw last night.
Also, fans booing him bothers me because it reflects poorly on San Diego sportsfans in general, not because I think it’s going to have any effect on any players.
#141@malcolm: I believe the Padres are attempting to aquire their type of hitter, via the draft. Trades are based more on availabity and need, which makes getting their type of hitter,via trade, a little more difficult.
#140@Alan: My earlier posts made clear that I dont boo either. But I would never claim that fans dont have the right to express that dissatisfaction at the park. That is where you and I strongly disagree.
#141@malcolm:
Maybe BB wanted to say something about a player in the press.
Anything else of interest in the interview? I imagine Philly Billy again brought up the desperate need for speed. SA is right, though. Too many low-average hitters.
#145@Stephen:
“say something positive.”
I’m not sure if A Gon’s RBI total is more impressive or less impressive given his team’s performance.
#142@Ben B.: So you disagree with the booing for PR and Image reasons?
Interesting. I have never heard that angle before.
I think the team should be grateful that enough fans care to boo still.
A team that was expected to win 85-90 games is on pace to win 65….yeah they should get the benefit of the doubt…give me a break-shut up and play good baseball-we haven’t seen that in a while around here!
#127@Schlom: Yes, but as I said, I’m talking about the exceptions, the Hoffman’s and Gwynn’s. Why do they choose to stay in San Diego for a career? It’s clearly not for the money.
#129@Tom Waits: The new DS motto, “Just blame Pat.”
#144@parlo: Alan did not say that fans “don’t have the right” to boo. His point is that it’s not right.
That seems to be one of the disconnects in this discussion today. There is a difference between “having a right” and “something being right.”
I support fans’ right to boo. But I have the right to say they are wrong and shouldn’t do it.
#146@Stephen: I find it extraordinarily impressive! I cannot even fathom how a guy can be leading the leagure in RBI, almost half way through the season, when his team has scored the 2nd fewest runs in the league and plays in the park which suppresses offense more than any other in the league. AMAZING!!
#151@Kevin: Jeez, it took us 150 posts to get here? Nicely done, Kevin!
#147@parlo: No, I oppose booing in this case because it’s stupidly short-sighted to boo one of the best players in franchise history who has shown great loyalty to this franchise. I care about other people booing because it reflects badly on all San Diego sports fans, including myself.
I can honestly say that I have never read or heard so much on such an inane topic.
I’m just glad I went to bed when the game was tied 1-1.
I am late to the discussion today, but I did read all the posts in the past 30 minutes.
As you may have guessed, I’m on the anti-booing side. I actually agree with basically everything Tom said. Who would have thunk it?
But there have been a number of specious arguments today.
– Fans have the right to boo because I pay their salaries. This is a cliche, and how do you know that? Maybe you do, maybe you don’t. What about TV revenue? Concession sales? Etc.
– The booing was because of frustration with the game/season. That may be, but since booing is not a nuanced act, booing usually relates to only the last play or last couple plays.
– The players are self-righteous or petty or whatever for defending Hoffman. Wait a second. Players have the right to boo with vitriol because they pay for a ticket. But players aren’t allowed to say: We didn’t think the booing was a good idea, especially concerning the second most important player in franchise history?
– The comparison to Phillies and Yankees fans. Yes, they boo like crazy, and it makes Padres fans look mild. But that’s doesn’t make them or Padres fans right. I’ve always thought fans in New York and Philly were out of line, and I think it would be better if San Diego fans did not become more like them.
#151@Kevin: This isnt Constitutional Law. If you are telling them they are wrong, you are saying that they should not do it. My point is that it is not your decision to determine if, and how other fans are allowed to express their disapproval. Who left you in charge?
My last post was probably too long.
But I forgot this: I thought the topic of the day would have been whether the decision to bunt (twice!) was good or bad. Not the booing.
My view: The sac bunt is always a bad idea. You don’t give away outs. The Padres had a better chance of scoring with no outs with runners on first and second than second and third with one out.
Yes, all major leaguers should be able to bunt. But they can’t. So Black didn’t put his players in a position to succeed. That’s his job. It’s not the player’s job to do something he can’t and make the manager look good.
#154@Ben B.: #154@Ben B.: As I stated earlier, you oppose it because you are image conscious. (As opposed to some here who believe it is more of a right/wrong issue)
#157@parlo: Yes, I am telling them they are wrong and saying that they should not do it.
I would never say I am in charge.
I have a right to an opinion — in this case, that most booing is wrong. But I will always fight for free speech — in this case, the booing.
#155@Turbine Dude: Amen.
Just found this at the UT site
http://weblog.signonsandiego.com/sports/drooz/weblog/archives/024668.html
#156@Kevin: I don’t care one way or another whether the fans boo the Padres (whether it’s Trevor for getting the loss, Jody Gerut for not getting the bunt down or P-Mac for running around on the field looking clueless) nor do I suspect the players do either. Sure, they’d rather not be booed, but more because winning teams don’t get booed.
However, I do care that the players are complaining to the press about the booing. It’s a sure way of turning the fans against the team. If you don’t like getting booed, maybe you should perform better.
#163@Schlom: That is your right to think that.
#162@parlo: They’re not booing.
They saying “Alan Drooz.”
#158@Kevin: Yup, that would have been a better topic … or see #31 for what I thought would have been a good topic … both can/will come up on another day …
#27@Ben B.: Am I the only one who believes that starting the” wave” is bad luck when your team is hitting? I cant remember a wave happening during an opposing teams AB this entire year! I sit through every home game and I am sick of this “party” attitude when 1.) the home team is at the plate and 2.) We’re LOSING (have a clue people! I also noticed the “PAD SQUAD” starting a shouting match (Also during the bottom of an inning).
Shouldn’t we be trying to distract the opposing teams hitters and not our own!!!
btw. I was booing Buddy Blacks call to bunt Gerut (our hottest hitter, esp w/ RISP), and probably the failure to execute. By the time Trevor gave up the twin dingers I was on my way out the door. I refuse to watch him pitch during non-save situations, I can’t stand it anymore…
#155@Turbine Dude: Really? You think?