Padres Pitcher Smackdown: Ashby vs Show
Thu, Feb 1, 2007
by Geoff Young
Jake Peavy beat Bruce Hurst in Day 3 of the smackdown. Peavy’s stretches of pure dominance were just too much for the steady reliability of Hurst.
Here is the schedule for the entire week:
- Monday: Gaylord Perry vs Dave Roberts
- Tuesday: Dave Dravecky vs Clay Kirby
- Wednesday: Bruce Hurst vs Jake Peavy
- Thursday: Andy Ashby vs Eric Show
- Friday: Andy Benes vs Ed Whitson
Today we move to a battle of right-handers with ties to the Padres’ World Series teams, Andy Ashby and Eric Show:
| Year(s) | GS | IP | ERA | ERA+ | WS | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Career with Padres | 1993-1999, 2004 | 185 | 1212 | 3.59 | 113 | 69 |
| Best year with Padres | 1995 | 31 | 192.2 | 2.94 | 138 | 14 |
Arguments For:
- Ashby ranks fourth all-time in Padres history in wins and seventh in ERA+.
- He pitched very well for the ‘98 NL Championship squad; you could make a real strong case for that being his best season, and I wouldn’t put up much of a fight.
- Except for 1998, when Kevin Brown pitched for the Padres, Ashby was the best pitcher in the rotation every year from 1994 through 1999.
Arguments Against:
- Ashby’s peak was fairly low; he had several very good seasons, but no great ones.
- Ashby lacked dominance — his hits allowed and innings pitched were about even.
- His post-season record was lackluster.
| Year(s) | GS | IP | ERA | ERA+ | WS | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Career with Padres | 1981-1990 | 230 | 1603.1 | 3.59 | 100 | 83 |
| Best year with Padres | 1988 | 32 | 234.2 | 3.26 | 105 | 14 |
Arguments For:
- Show is the only pitcher ever to win 100 games while wearing a Padres uniform.
- He’s top three all-time in games, innings pitched, strikeouts, and many other categories.
- Show was an important part of the Padres’ first ever World Series team in 1984.
Arguments Against:
- Show’s ERA+ is perfectly average, 100.
- He had a terrible post-season in ‘84.
- Like Ashby, Show’s peak was pretty low; much of his success can be attributed to the fact that he remained with the Padres for so long.
I keep going back and forth on this one. What do you guys think?
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February 1, 2007 at 6:50 am
I gotta go with Show. Ashby may have had stretches where he was better, but Show just has too much longevity for Ashby to overtake him, imo. I also have a soft spot for the 1984 team and for Show himself, who was such a tragic figure and a fascinating character. By personality and temperament he really should have been a left hander.
February 1, 2007 at 6:58 am
Thought y’all might get a kick out of this…in Today’s Philadelphia Daily News they have an article about the potential trade between the Pads and Phils…Wanted to share a paragraph…
“One possibility is that they have another trade they can make involving righthander Jon Lieber that would bring an outfielder in return. Another would be that the talks with San Diego would be expanded with Lieber being packaged with Rowand and the Phillies also receiving an outfielder (maybe Sledge or Mike Cameron).”
What another great example of a media outlet that has no clue. “Maybe we could go get the Pads best players and we can give them our spare parts.” Linebrink/Cameron for Lieber/Rowand? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
The whole article can be found here:
http://www.philly.com/mld/dail.....594159.htm
February 1, 2007 at 8:50 am
Tough one - this is like picking an 8-9 seed game in the NCAAs. I might have to go with Show, but by the narrowest of margins.
Does Ashby get any bonus points for that gem of a game he pitched in ‘97 or thereabouts, I think it was against the Braves? Complete game shutout, something like 85 total pitches in 2 hours? I tried finding the box score and pitching line line on the Web but no luck.
February 1, 2007 at 9:14 am
I love Ashby. He was one of my favorite Padres while he was here. Having said that, his late season injuries/meltdown was frustrating. And with the number presented here, I can’t be picking Ashby over Show.
It’s the Show then. Having 100 wins as a Padres has got to count for something, right?
February 1, 2007 at 9:21 am
One of favorite Ashby game:
http://www.baseball-reference......4160.shtml
February 1, 2007 at 9:36 am
3 - Stu … I looked here for the game you mentioned … http://www.baseball-reference......97&t=p … don’t see it … but it’s a fun web site for looking for stuff like that … take another look and see what you find.
February 1, 2007 at 9:43 am
#3: Do you mean this game? For some reason I thought it was the Braves too but it’s Colorado.
http://www.baseball-reference......7050.shtml
February 1, 2007 at 9:46 am
Does Ash get bonus points for getting us Eaton…and then by proxy, AGon and CY?
If he does that may push him over…if not, I got to go with Show.
February 1, 2007 at 9:50 am
I was at this game to see Ashby vs. Maddux in 1998:
http://www.baseball-reference......8120.shtml, take a look at their record at the end of the game. What a game that was. Late in the season and in playoff race. Man, those 1998 Padres were something.
Geoff, I can’t wait to read about that season again.
February 1, 2007 at 9:54 am
#8: good point, CM. Not to mention the strings of bizarre accidents that befell the pitchers the Padres got in the deal. Eaton stabbing himself while opening a CD, and Loewer hunting accident.
February 1, 2007 at 11:40 am
I think Ashby would be my sentimental choice, but I’ll have to go with Show. He was bigger contributor for longer and more consistent.
Ashby was the sweatiest dude ever though, if that garners extra points.
February 1, 2007 at 12:00 pm
Re: 7. Didi, that’s the one. I remember it was a Sunday day game at home, and I should have known it was ‘98, not ‘97. I had just graduated from college, was still in New Hampshire then and saw the highlights on the Sunday night SportsCenter. Needless to say, I was excited, while my friends (all Sox fans) were unimpressed.
Then again, those same Sox fans were cheering for the Pads, as well as against the Yanks, a few months later.
LM - thanks for digging into this as well.
February 1, 2007 at 12:57 pm
The sad part of that story did was that Loewer was probably the best guy in that deal…then he had to go and fall out of a tree.
February 1, 2007 at 1:52 pm
I think Ashby, in his prime, was about ten times better than Show. Maybe more. Show was a Padre for a long time, thus accounting for the 100 wins (and it was exactly 100, in 10 seasons), but he also only had one “great” season (88). He was good in 86 but only threw 136 innings. Ashby’s 98 is far better than Show’s ‘88, and he was very good for about 4 seasons in a time when the Pads were pretty terrible. I mean, Gene Harris was the closer during Ashby’s first season with the Pads, and in 95, when Ashby had a 2.94 era but only won 12 games, the Padres lineup included Eddie Williams, Jody Reed and Andujar freakin’ Cedeno.
Aside from that, as a Padre fan, I feel this way about the two pitchers: With Show, I always just assumed he was going to slog it out, hopefully pitch well enough to keep the team in the game. He wasn’t going to overpower hitters, he was going to allow base runners, but there was always the hope that the Padres would overcome all that and win anyway. He was a #4 starter - the Brian Lawrence of his day.
With Ashby it was totally different. You knew he would get lit up occasionally, get lifted in the 3rd inning after throwing 100 pitches, set up the team to lose and burn the bullpen in the process. There was always that fear, and it occasionally came true. But there was another thing - when Andy Ashby was pitching for the Pads there was always the hope - the possibility - that maybe, just maybe, this would be the first no-hitter in Pads history. Maybe tonight he’ll strike out 15 guys. Maybe tonight’s the night. His stuff, in his prime, was absolutely filthy. There isn’t another Padre starter I can say that about besides Jake Peavy and Kevin Brown. And certainly I can’t say that about Eric Show.
There are, of course, mitigating circumstances here, too. Without getting too far into it - I don’t want this to turn political - Show was universally loathed by his teammates, specifically his black teammates. He was a rabid right-winger, a member of the McCarthy-ist John Birch Society. He sat on the mound and sulked during the celebration of Pete Rose’s 4192nd hit. He was a coke addict who died from an overdose. I just can’t feel too much excitement for him. And when Peavy breaks his record for wins as a Padre, I will be very glad.
Ashby was the better pitcher and I think he was a better person too.
February 1, 2007 at 2:11 pm
Show is such a fascinating character. I’ve heard it suggested that he might have been better off been pursuing a music career:
http://www.baseballlibrary.com.....liver1.stm
Also, Show apparently wasn’t the only Birch member in the ‘84 rotation:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/.....6chem.html
Not passing judgment, just pointing out that fact.
February 1, 2007 at 2:25 pm
Completely agree with david. Ashby is ahead on all counts:
- as a pitcher by a small margin…Ashby was simply a better pitcher and his occasional ability to dominate counts for more than Show’s longevity. Really, Show has little more than longevity going for him as he was very close to the definition of mediocre;
- and, as a human being, it’s Ashby in a landslide. Character should matter, and I don’t think I ever hated any Padre player except Show. There have been a fair share of Padre jerks (Jack Clark, anyone?), but Show was in a whole different category.
February 1, 2007 at 2:59 pm
Re 15: Thanks Geoff, the part about Brown on the car with the megaphone actually brought a tear to me eye. No kidding.
I was in technical training at Keesler AFB when all this happened, boy was I bummed I wasn’t in SD. You can’t imagine the razzing I took when the Pads lost to Detroit.
February 1, 2007 at 3:11 pm
PF4L: No prob. On another note, I’m going through relievers now. I was a little surprised to learn who saved the only World Series victory in Padres history.
February 1, 2007 at 4:25 pm
Re 18: That would be Craig Lefferts, wasn’t it? Hawkins got the win if I remember correctly.
February 1, 2007 at 6:56 pm
RE. #15
I read the article - who were the other two Birchers? I remember at the time all kinds of press mentioning that the Pads were full of John Birchers. 3 members isn’t so bad. I think Gwynn’s quote in the article is interesting - that San Diego has gone to the WS twice, and each time faced the best team of the decade. Interesting, and true.
#16
Agree with you on Show. I was always a Padre fan but could never stand the guy at all. And it’s not just politically - I was 11 when I first cared about baseball, and even then I couldn’t stand the dude. There was no political consideration. That came later.
February 1, 2007 at 7:25 pm
Since,
Ashby –> Eaton –> Gonzalez…
I take Ashby.
February 1, 2007 at 7:31 pm
#19: Yep, Lefferts is the man.
#20: Wikipedia says Dravecky and Thurmond:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Dravecky
It cites the U-T article as evidence, but I didn’t see them named explicitly there.
February 1, 2007 at 8:36 pm
#22
Dravecky makes some sense, since he’s a hardcore Christian. Thurmond I don’t know anything about, except this - in my first strat-o-matic league (1990, I think) I drafted him towards the end of the draft, basically because he was once a Pad and had a decent year in relief for SF. It got me thinking - are there still Strat-O-Matic leagues? Or is it all Fantasy baseball now?
Upon looking it up, I am amazed about Thurmond’s longevity - he pitched for 8 years, 840 innings, and managed a K/BB ratio of just 320/266. That’s unreal.
February 1, 2007 at 10:59 pm
I played in a S-O-M league back in the late-80s / early-90s in the Bay Area … I’m pretty sure the league is still going … now that’s an intense way to spend an offseason!